# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1423 "2021-11-22T17:03:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The sort of people going to these protests likely have seen similar many, many times, and normally people do not get shot. You can start attending such protests/riots if you want to get more familiar with it, the fact that you aren’t familiar with it isn’t my fault as the information is out there and easily accessible. “Most of the time no one gets shot” is not a reassurance, particularly in a country where mass shootings are a regular occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1424 "2021-11-22T17:04:09Z")
You can choose the level of fear you want to live in. The percentages on being shot by an AR-15 wielding person in the United States are insanely low. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1425 "2021-11-22T17:05:12Z")
“Why, the blood scarcely comes up to my ankles!” Seems to me that the people who feel the need to walk around with an AR-15 are the ones living in fear. The rest of us live in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1426 "2021-11-22T17:09:29Z")
You don’t live in reality if you think you live in a country where it’s normal to go into a panic because someone has a gun. Or use that as a justification for Rosenbaum attacking Rittenhouse. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1427 "2021-11-22T17:11:30Z")
You don’t live in reality if you think you live in a country where it’s normal to go around with a rifle held at low ready. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1428 "2021-11-22T17:11:35Z")
I had a friend in high school from the white Chicago bungalow belt. In 1968 his older brothers and their friends had loaded up their car with firearms and headed to the South Side for the MLK Jr assassination riots. However, the police had set up roadblocks and the guns were confiscated and the young idiots would share a very overworked toilet while awaiting for arraignment. Not so the Keystone Kenosha Kops 53 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1429 "2021-11-22T17:12:33Z")
Also the rate of rifle homicides, as per 2019 FBI data, would come out to around 0.1 in 100,000. You have bigger things to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1430 "2021-11-22T17:13:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You don’t live in reality if you think you live in a country where it’s normal to go into a panic because someone has a gun. Or use that as a justification for Rosenbaum attacking Rittenhouse. And yet we excuse many, many police (and some civilian) shootings merely on the basis of the shooter _thinking_ the deceased had a gun or other weapon. You may recall one example being the reason for the protest in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1431 "2021-11-22T17:17:25Z")
[Black gun-rights groups have started open-carry marches at anti-racism protests (yahoo.com)](https://news.yahoo.com/black-gun-rights-groups-started-055400061.html) Look at the picture in that article–that group went all over the country in the last couple of years, with hundreds of them fully armed and open carrying. I don’t believe there have been any shooting incidents involving them at all. Here’s video of a large armed group that was at the Michigan capitol in 2017: > Here’s a large armed rally of gun owners that occurred in Richmond, VA: [Thousands of armed protesters turn out for Trump-supported gun rally (yahoo.com)](https://news.yahoo.com/authorities-brace-massive-gun-rights-rally-richmond-virginia-100549521--abc-news-topstories.html) There is nothing that notable about what Rittenhouse did prior to shooting Rosenbaum. The shooting is what was rare and unusual, not the carrying. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1432 "2021-11-22T17:18:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And yet we excuse many, many police (and some civilian) shootings merely on the basis of the shooter _thinking_ the deceased had a gun or other weapon. You may recall one example being the reason for the protest in the first place. Clearly, you are not familiar with the ‘cop shot by wallet or cell phone’ statistics! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1433 "2021-11-22T17:21:50Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > [Black gun-rights groups have started open-carry marches at anti-racism protests (yahoo.com)](https://news.yahoo.com/black-gun-rights-groups-started-055400061.html) > > Look at the picture in that article–that group went all over the country in the last couple of years, with hundreds of them fully armed and open carrying. I don’t believe there have been any shooting incidents involving them at all. Well… > [@](#): > > Three people were wounded when someone’s gun accidentally discharged, but otherwise the rally was tense but peaceful. Only three people wounded! Practically a church picnic! Another interesting excerpt from that article (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Fellow militia member Nick Alsager [told the _Louisville Courier Journal_](https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2020/07/25/louisville-protests-nfac-three-percenters-expected-demonstrate/3288198001/) the NFAC marchers had a constitutional right to speak up, but **they’ve “got no business being here. It ain’t your state.”** Hmm… ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1434 "2021-11-22T17:22:46Z")
Point remains, these guys and guys like them have been doing this all over the country. No one ever felt the need to charge one of them for no reason until Rosenbaum did with Rittenhouse. The idea that Rosenbaum was acting reasonably is not supported by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1435 "2021-11-22T17:24:36Z")
That point only remains if what they were doing compares to what Rittenhouse was doing. Rosenbaum may well have had a valid reason to assume there was an active shooter and that it was Rittenhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1436 "2021-11-22T17:26:43Z")
We have zero evidence he had a valid reason to assume that. We have decent amount of evidence Rosenbaum was the unhinged aggressor. This is the weird narrative you guys keep trying to promote, that somehow Rittenhouse _having a gun_ caused him to be attacked. There is little real-world evidence to suggest that is the normal reaction to armed protesters in the United States, and ample evidence that is not the normal reaction. Rittenhouse bringing the gun certainly is why Rosenbaum is dead, but there is no evidence any of us have that suggests that it is the reason Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse. Nor is there any evidence at all that it would be “the norm” for someone to attack an armed protester _because they were armed_, there have simply been too many large-scale armed protests where such things do not regularly occur, for it to be suggested that is the normal behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1437 "2021-11-22T17:31:46Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is the weird narrative you guys keep trying to promote, that somehow Rittenhouse _having a gun_ caused him to be attacked. Not _just_ “having a gun” - that’s the weird oversimplified narrative you guys keep trying to promote. What he was doing with the gun and what else was happening around them is important too. Context matters. (Also: are we handwaving away the three people shot in the article you posted as an example of “no shooting incidents”? Cool. Cool cool cool.) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1438 "2021-11-22T17:32:39Z")
Good to know that, in this case, not just being armed but open carrying a long gun offered no real protection from being assaulted! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1439 "2021-11-22T17:34:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > You don’t live in reality if you think you live in a country where it’s normal to go around with a rifle held at low ready. Generally I’m in favor of carry, but I agree that low ready is the equivalent of holding a pistol in your hand with the muzzle pointed at the ground. It calls into question the dividing line between carry and what is called brandishing in some states and fifth-degree assault in MN. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1440 "2021-11-22T17:35:07Z")
I don’t think you could easily demonstrate brandishing from the way he was carrying the weapon, no. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1441 "2021-11-22T17:35:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s a big difference between using the phrase “constitutional right” and saying “it is in the constitution.” There’s nothing wrong with saying you simply don’t believe **anything** is a constitutional right unless it is specifically enumerated. That of course means the following things will be illegal throughout the American South tomorrow: abortion, gay marriage, divorce, adultery, pornography, sodomy, and a number of other things. First of all I want to thank you for the detailed post. It helps me understand your thinking on the matter. Rather than continuing to argue the individual points, I’ll just briefly explain why I think we just have to agree to disagree on this. Most of those things you listed _ **have** _ in fact been illegal at various times and places. And moreover, in most cases they would have survived judicial scrutiny in the time periods in which such laws were enacted. Times change, and the meaning of certain broad Constitutional provisions also changes with the times. This more or less by definition supports the contention that such provisions are “vague and non-specific”, but if you like, you can use a descriptor like “broad and subject to multiple different interpretations”. There are two principal points I tried to make in the examples I cited to support this. One is the self-evident fact that a great many of these contentious decisions of the Supreme Court are very often split along ideological lines. So, far from the Constitution allegedly supporting certain non-enumerated principles, in a great many cases you have approximately half the Court saying that it does and the other half saying that it doesn’t. The second point I tried to make, which I would think is about equally self-evident, is that at different times the Court would have ruled very differently on specific issues of alleged non-enumerated rights, based on societal norms at the time and possibly also based on the prevailing ideology of the dominant justices. One doesn’t have to go back very far to envision a time when same-sex marriage, for instance, would not only have been denied by the Supreme Court in likely a unanimous vote, but that ruling would have been overwhelmingly supported by the population. So I find it unpersuasive that any such alleged non-enumerated right could be claimed to be implicit in some Bill of Rights provision with such certainty that one could be confident it would be upheld by the SCOTUS. In so many cases it’s totally a toss-up. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1442 "2021-11-22T17:58:53Z")
Yeah, most of my life “open carry” when in town had usually meant slung over your shoulder or holstered. But, meanwhile, from our pals over at the NY Post… > **[Armed father-daughter duo march alongside anti-Rittenhouse protesters — to...](https://nypost.com/2021/11/21/armed-father-daughter-duo-seek-to-protect-anti-rittenhouse-protesters/)** > > Protesters upset over the acquittal of Kyle Rittenhouse marched in Kenosha on Sunday — in the presence of Erik and Jade Jordan armed with AR-15s they said were to protect the demonstrators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=73)