# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1543 "2021-11-26T23:30:36Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > How exactly am I supposed to tell the difference between KR as a good guy with a gun versus little man with a gun in his hand? > > One consistent theme in this thread is that 2nd amendment enthusiasts think no one should bat an eye at a guy(s) walking around with long guns at the ready. KR could have at least had the rifle slung over his shoulder if the intent was to be armed but non-confrontational. It isn’t just “2nd amendment enthusiasts”, I’m in favor of the private right to own firearms, but am not broadly in favor of widespread open carry. But the State of Wisconsin, as per our system of Federalism, is allowed to pass its own laws. Open carry of firearms is absolutely, clearly, unequivocally legal in that State. If you are someone who feels the need to “confront people”, then it is on you to understand the laws of your State. If you live in Wisconsin, that would mean understanding that anyone you see walking around with a gun, unless committing some other crime, is behaving lawfully–and that you have no right to interfere with them. Generally speaking “good guys with a gun”, to crib the silly NRA talking point, are a last resort in extremis. It is not your job to “investigate” things about which you have a suspicion. You can call the police if you see someone with a gun that gives you concern. Unless you have clear and convincing evidence that he is imminently going to attack people, then you need to keep your distance and not interfere. So the dilemma you postulate about is not a terribly hard one to deal with–the default should be you don’t interfere with other people without very obvious evidence doing so might prevent a violent crime. None of those conditions to our knowledge were present in Kenosha when KR was simply walking around. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1544 "2021-11-27T04:28:33Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > None of those conditions to our knowledge were present in Kenosha when KR was simply walking around. I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that open carry is not legal in WI under WI law. I disagree with that law but I don’t think it is illegal for KR to be on that street with a long gun (obviously the trial judge didn’t think breaking curfew was a mitigating factor). I do think most of us can agree it was horribly ill-advised. And IMHO KR was not “simply walking around” with a firearm at the ready in a curfew (but there isn’t a specific law about that in WI). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1545 "2021-11-27T05:38:58Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > {…} And IMHO KR was not “simply walking around” with a firearm at the ready in a curfew (but there isn’t a specific law about that in WI). _Because Pennsylvania maintains an open carry policy, anyone who is at least 18 years of age, and is not prohibited by law to own and hold firearms, may openly carry a handgun in plain sight without a license…_ While I was a resident of PA I did consider open carrying a handgun . . . but I cannot imagine that open carry could possibly mean walking around, in public, with that gun in my hand. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1546 "2021-11-27T23:51:32Z")
Yeah, I think a lot of people are confused about what KR and others were doing being considered “open carry” vs. brandishing. Open carry to me does not mean carrying a loaded firearm in one’s hands, in a ready-to-fire way. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1547 "2021-11-28T00:14:20Z")
It doesn’t matter what you think open carry looks like. The way that he was carrying the AR-15 is not out of the norm of other pictures and videos I’ve seen of protesters carrying AR-15s at rallies. Open carry does not mean it has to be holstered. The way he was carrying the gun would not be considered brandishing in States that have brandishing laws (I seem to remember Wisconsin doesn’t actually have one.) Many States that don’t have open carry but do have brandishing laws then just about any display of a firearm could be considered brandishing. States that have open carry but also have brandishing laws, brandishing usually is a very specific thing usually with an element to which the prosecution has to show it was intended to represent an imminent threat to a specific person. It would be highly difficult if a police officer had arrested Rittenhouse at the point that picture of him carrying the AR earlier in the night had been taken that you could easily demonstrate that. Note that that picture was not taken right before the shooting, so we also don’t know the exact configuration of how Rittenhouse was carrying the gun when Rosenbaum came across the parking lot to confront him. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1548 "2021-11-28T00:18:28Z")
I’m not someone who made any argument about Rosenbaum attacking or confronting KR because he was carrying a weapon, or because of how he was carrying. I was commenting on how KR was carrying, period. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1549 "2021-11-28T00:19:21Z")
The way he was carrying was absolutely “open carry.” That is true regardless of what “open carry means to me.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1550 "2021-11-28T21:38:38Z")
I don’t think **eschrodinger** was trying to be argumentative, obviously under Wisconsin law _that_ is not brandishing and comes under the definition of “open carry”. But many of us _will_ comment that this may be the law but it still looks off to us, maybe because what is customary and accepted has changed over time (or from what we are accustomed to from our urban background). Your posts have been very helpful, Martin, but really once in a while you can let someone make a comment and just do a _“that’s just, like, your opinion, Man”_. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1551 "2021-11-29T00:36:54Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying that open carry is not legal in WI under WI law. I disagree with that law but I don’t think it is illegal for KR to be on that street with a long gun (obviously the trial judge didn’t think breaking curfew was a mitigating factor). Isn’t there an age limit though? You’re allowed to be under 18 and open carry in Wisconsin? That seems awfully young. I assumed 17 is too young. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1552 "2021-11-29T00:58:18Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Isn’t there an age limit though? You’re allowed to be under 18 and open carry in Wisconsin? That seems awfully young. I assumed 17 is too young. There seems to be a legal loophole in the narrow sense of, “law written to allow one thing also allows this other thing the legislators probably didn’t intend” in WI. The law was written as an exception to the general “people under 18 can’t have guns” law to allow people under 18 to hunt, but actually allowed people under 18 to open carry rifles pretty much anywhere at any time. It seems unlikely this was intended when the law was passed. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1553 "2021-11-29T02:16:45Z")
> [@tofor](#): > > The law was written as an exception to the general “people under 18 can’t have guns” law to allow people under 18 to hunt, but actually allowed people under 18 to open carry rifles pretty much anywhere at any time. IIRC the text ended up limiting the carry prohibition on minors, beside handguns, to rifles/carbines/shotguns with a barrel length less than 16 inches. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1554 "2021-11-29T15:27:38Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It is not your job to “investigate” things about which you have a suspicion. You can call the police if you see someone with a gun that gives you concern. I would add that it’s also not your job to “patrol” streets during protests (or riots if you prefer). You can call the police if you think the protesters/rioters are crossing the line. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1555 "2021-11-29T16:10:49Z")
I don’t think they are directly comparable at all. Patrolling the streets is also just known as “being in a public place, legally.” Attempting a citizen’s arrest is far more intrusive and involves you directly exercising State power onto another individual person, the potential consequences (not just legal) of attempting to detain someone are much higher than for just walking around on the sidewalk, and should not be conflated. Patrolling the streets is mostly harmless and pointless, attempting a citizen’s arrest is far riskier and far more likely to expose you to significant criminal and civil liability. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1556 "2021-11-29T19:37:04Z")
“Patrolling the streets” is also just known as “looking for trouble, legally”. What is it with the need to define all terms just to be able to dismiss the discussion? I can’t say I think much of it as a debate tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1557 "2021-11-29T19:40:00Z")
Let me know if you have anything meaningful to say about the case, I’ve not observed you doing so in the last half dozen posts of yours, thus I have had little reason to type a response. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1558 "2021-11-29T19:49:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > {…} Patrolling the streets is also just known as “being in a public place, legally.” {…} Well, not exactly, > COUNT 7: FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH AN EMERGENCY ORDER FROM STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT > Rittenhouse was charged with being out on the streets after an 8 p.m. curfew imposed by the city, a minor offense that carries a fine of up to $200. The judge dismissed this charge during the trial, saying the prosecution didn’t offer enough evidence to prove it. > [EXPLAINER: What charges did Kyle Rittenhouse face? | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-kenosha-3febaa501c57a6b54e168353fe0b2a26) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1559 "2021-11-29T20:01:53Z")
And that was dismissed because there was no proper curfew order being executed, as per the judge. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1560 "2021-11-29T20:07:16Z")
See? You just dismiss the discussion. Doesn’t seem to matter if you can or cannot define the terminology, the end result is the same: dismissal. What I wrote in my previous post is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1561 "2021-11-29T22:04:29Z")
You’re literally saying nothing. You don’t like that I call out nonsense and try to wave it away as me “defining things”, sorry, I’m not the one defining things, the English language and the law have done that for me. You just don’t like how things are defined, that’s an emotional problem on your behalf, and nothing I want anything to do with. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/1562 "2021-11-30T05:07:14Z")
There it is again: “nonsense”. No need to respond to nonsense, is there? Shut that down! /shrug I see the M.O., I called it out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=79)