# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/141 "2021-11-05T22:04:28Z")
So start a thread about them. What bearing do they have on the Kyle Rittenhouse trial? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/142 "2021-11-05T22:07:53Z")
The mere presence of a weapon is not enough to claim self defense and then attack the person who has a weapon. You, and many others, are very conveniently leaving out the fact that some of the assailants were armed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/143 "2021-11-05T22:08:05Z")
If I place myself in the occasion of danger, it is not self defense. You don’t take a gun next door because the neighbors are fighting and you don’t jump in the lion pit, you don’t kick the lion and you don’t step on Supermans’ Cape. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/144 "2021-11-05T22:10:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You, and many others, are very conveniently leaving out the fact that some of the assailants were armed as well. Because that is not the topic of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/145 "2021-11-05T22:11:46Z")
Because the presence of other people and their actions is relevant. Life doesn’t occur in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/146 "2021-11-05T22:12:53Z")
Sounds a lot like victim blaming. People are allowed to exercise their rights regardless of rioting mobs disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/147 "2021-11-05T22:13:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because the presence of other people and their actions is relevant. Life doesn’t occur in a vacuum. What bearing do they have on the Kyle Rittenhouse trial? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/148 "2021-11-05T22:13:16Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > You need only fear your life is in danger. No, you have to have a reasonable fear you are in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm. Open carry is protected by Wisconsins state constitution and that right has also been recognized and codified in a least 2 state statutes. Is it reasonable to fear for your life from someone who is doing something legal as well as walking away from you? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/149 "2021-11-05T22:14:29Z")
Because walking away from a violent riot and then being pursued by the violent rioters and assaulted by the violent rioters and hearing gunshots may actually lead one to believe that the violent rioters are a reasonable threat to one’s safety and thus justify self defense. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/150 "2021-11-05T22:19:27Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > If I place myself in the occasion of danger, it is not self defense. > > You don’t take a gun next door because the neighbors are fighting and you don’t jump in the lion pit, you don’t kick the lion and you don’t step on Supermans’ Cape. Since Rosenbaum placed himself in the occasion of danger he’s not entitled to self defense under your claim, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/151 "2021-11-05T22:20:40Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because walking away from a violent riot and then being pursued by the violent rioters and assaulted by the violent rioters and hearing gunshots may actually lead one to believe that the violent rioters are a reasonable threat to one’s safety and thus justify self defense. Are you talking about the people that directly engaged with him or the people that did the 40 million dollars worth of damage that you mentioned earlier? If you’re talking about the people that were directly engaging with him, I don’t know why you think they haven’t been discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/152 "2021-11-05T23:45:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > IMO this statement seems to contradict the experience of many, many Americans over the past few recent decades alone. Mod Note: Okay, now I will make it official. It is not against the rule to leave out most of the quote, but you must indicate the ellipsis if the omitted context significantly changes the intent. [Disregard - This has been withdrawn] ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/153 "2021-11-05T23:53:14Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@Loach](#): > > > > You can not claim self defense in an open carry state just because someone is open carrying. > > You need only fear your life is in danger. You do not have to prove intent. > > " based on the law and facts " > > Ultimately the ‘law’ is the instructions given to the jury. The ‘facts’ are selected by 12 jurors, from information given them by paid professionals each of whom has a vested interest in the outcome. > > It is not the scientific method. As pkbites points out it has to be a reasonable fear not just a fear. The reasonable person standard is a legal construct and not just your feelings. You don’t get to chose what is reasonable. That’s why Rittenhouse is on trial. He doesn’t get to chose that his fear was reasonable. That’s up to first the prosecutor and ultimately the jury. You saying you are in fear just because someone is open carrying a gun in an open carry state is not going to be regarded as reasonable absent any other actions. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/154 "2021-11-05T23:53:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I was speaking to the actions of Rosenbaum. Yeah, it’s a real bummer he killed two people and injured a third. Wait a minute… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/155 "2021-11-05T23:55:50Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Is it reasonable to fear for your life from someone who is doing something legal as well as walking away from you? If that “something legal” is “waving around a deadly weapon”, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/156 "2021-11-05T23:56:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Not a nitpick at all. That’s very helpful. I also find it interesting they can’t consider lesser offenses. Well, under subsection (2), if any of those mitigating factors apply, the offense becomes second-degree intentional homicide. It looks to me like the defense could try to put all of them at issue, and then the prosecution would have to prove that they did not apply. I haven’t yet found anything about whether the jury can be instructed on lesser included offenses that weren’t charged, or whether any lesser offenses were charged. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/157 "2021-11-05T23:57:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You, and many others, are very conveniently leaving out the fact that some of the assailants were armed as well. If they shot anyone, they should go to jail too. (Before I get a bunch of nitpicking, I don’t mean “should” as in “that’s how the law works”, I mean “if the law wasn’t fucking stupid, it would be illegal to go pick fights armed”) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/158 "2021-11-06T00:06:44Z")
Wait a minute. Thinking that someone is going to take your gun is grounds for considering your life to be in danger? That makes no sense at all. If someone taking your gun is a cause for fear, then why would you carry? Isn’t the gun supposed to make you safer? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/159 "2021-11-06T00:08:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > […]Isn’t the gun supposed to make you safer? Of course not, why would hanging around an implement of death make you safer? That’s ridiculous. Guns raise your risk of death. > **[Living in a house with a gun increases your odds of death](https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000520/gun-risk-death)** > > It’s an unnecessary risk. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/160 "2021-11-06T00:32:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait a minute. Thinking that someone is going to take your gun is grounds for considering your life to be in danger? Yes. In many situations it certainly is, and has been recognized as so under the law and in court rulings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=9)