# The Rittenhouse trial **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 4, 2021, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798 "2021-11-04T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/161 "2021-11-06T00:36:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait a minute. Thinking that someone is going to take your gun is grounds for considering your life to be in danger? That makes no sense at all. If someone taking your gun is a cause for fear, then why would you carry? Isn’t the gun supposed to make you safer? I mean it’s contextual. If I’m open carrying, and I see someone across the street standing at a street corner “eyeballing” me, and I conclude “that guy wants to take my gun” and I then draw my gun and shoot and kill that man, I can say fairly certainly I would not prevail in a self-defense claim because I do not believe any sane jury presented with those facts would believe I had a reasonable fear for my life. If someone is yelling “get him” at me and “beat his ass” and him and four of his friends are chasing me down the street as I run away, one of them fires a “warning shot” and then one of them catches me and starts trying to pull my gun away from me–I think there’s a significant chance that if I then shot and killed that person, I could obtain an acquittal from a jury. [Note again, we don’t know **exactly** what happened with Rittenhosue, but some of the details that are exculpatory towards him actually are acknowledged by the prosecutors, like a lot of cases like this it’s going to be complicated–note here that this previous paragraph is not intended to suggest for sure we know what happened in the Rittenhouse/Rosenbaum interaction, but rather that the interaction as described by the defense would raise serious and legitimate self-defense claims.] ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/162 "2021-11-06T00:54:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait a minute. Thinking that someone is going to take your gun is grounds for considering your life to be in danger? That makes no sense at all. If someone taking your gun is a cause for fear, then why would you carry? Isn’t the gun supposed to make you safer? It doesn’t make you safer, nor should it make you feel that way. It makes the potential consequences of violating your person higher. A deterrent. Assume a violent unarmed person assailing a nonviolent and obviously armed person. Our unarmed person has demonstrated that they intend to act to achieve their goal regardless of the most dire consequences to themselves being incredibly obvious and still chose to proceed. Depending on the circumstance that man unarmed man was either brave and stupid, or criminally suicidal, or possibly all four. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/163 "2021-11-06T01:09:49Z")
I am legitimately shocked this needs to be explained. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/164 "2021-11-06T01:42:47Z")
Heck, if skateboard guy had a knife instead of a skateboard, then Rittenhouse would be dead. Someone trying to disarm an active shooter, which Rittenhouse was, is not necessarily a threat to life. Disarming an active shooter has a wide spectrum starting with taking away a firearm from an active shooter so they don’t shoot someone else. Octopus, the act of disarming an active shooter is not the same as threatening an active shooters life. And Rittenhouse was an active shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/165 "2021-11-06T02:00:37Z")
\ ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/166 "2021-11-06T02:05:21Z")
> [@](#): > > [Living in a house with a gun increases your odds of death - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000520/gun-risk-death) Is that one of those studies that includes instances where the fact that a gun was in the house had no bearing on the death that occurred? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/167 "2021-11-06T02:17:05Z")
Someone who has acted in self defense is not what is typically referred to as a so-called active shooter. If Rittenhouse was shooting people for absolutely no reason it’s a pretty safe assumption that a knife or skateboard wielding former rioter current heroic citizen approaching a so-called active shooter who is armed with a rifle is most likely dead as they approach. I understand folks have a preferred narrative but some of these posts stretch the bounds of credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/168 "2021-11-06T10:49:21Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Since Rosenbaum placed himself in the occasion of danger he’s not entitled to self defense under your claim, correct? You are correct. Rosenbaum did not avoid the obvious. He had no legal claim to self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/169 "2021-11-06T11:01:26Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Is it reasonable to fear for your life from someone who is doing something legal as well as walking away from you? It is reasonable, logical and traditional. The best defense is an aggressive offense. An unarmed man in conflict with a well armed man must seize any advantage available to him. Rosenbaum did not have a deadly weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/170 "2021-11-06T11:39:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Someone who has acted in self defense is not what is typically referred to as a so-called active shooter. Rittenhouse was not a resident of the community. He did not own property there. He was not trained in, or associated with, any civil authority. Rittenhouse was part of a turbulent mob - a rioter with a weapon that he discharged. He was an active shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/171 "2021-11-06T14:38:49Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Mod Note: Okay, now I will make it official. It is not against the rule to leave out most of the quote, but you must indicate the ellipsis if the omitted context significantly changes the intent. The other mods have convinced me that this was not appropriate and it is hereby withdrawn. Since a mod note has no official status, nor are the tracked, nothing further need be. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/172 "2021-11-06T14:50:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait a minute. Thinking that someone is going to take your gun is grounds for considering your life to be in danger? That makes no sense at all. If someone taking your gun is a cause for fear, then why would you carry? Isn’t the gun supposed to make you safer? I often open carry my 9 mm. If someone attacks me and tries to take my gun, I will assume they will shoot me with it after taking control of it. Me shooting them first is a valid act of self defense. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/173 "2021-11-06T14:53:57Z")
Even more so if you’re “on patrol”. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/174 "2021-11-06T15:07:20Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@octopus](#): > > > > Someone who has acted in self defense is not what is typically referred to as a so-called active shooter. > > Rittenhouse was not a resident of the community. He did not own property there. He was not trained in, or associated with, any civil authority. Rittenhouse was part of a turbulent mob - a rioter with a weapon that he discharged. He was an active shooter. Just so long as you understand that none of what you wrote has any bearing on the case except the last part. It doesn’t matter if he was a resident of the community. Neither were the victims. It doesn’t matter if he owned property there. Neither did the victims. He doesn’t need to with any civil authority. He had as much right to be there as the protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/175 "2021-11-06T15:13:53Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > > [@octopus](#): > > > > Someone who has acted in self defense is not what is typically referred to as a so-called active shooter. > > Rittenhouse was not a resident of the community. He did not own property there. He was not trained in, or associated with, any civil authority. Rittenhouse was part of a turbulent mob - a rioter with a weapon that he discharged. He was an active shooter. This is a strange post. We live in the United States, not China or Russia–there generally aren’t “internal controls” on where we are allowed to go and be, the right to be on the streets isn’t a right only held by residents of the local community or property owners, or people trained / associated with civil authority. There is also not any clear evidence Rittenhouse was part of a “mob” by any definition of the word mob. Nor that he was a rioter, by any definition of the word rioter. The best evidence we see shows that prior to the shooting, Rittenhouse appeared to mostly be walking solo around the area of protest, largely sticking to sidewalks and not damaging property. That doesn’t sound like riot behavior or mob behavior to me. Active shooter also generally refers to a gunman who has chosen to attack a civilian population for purposes of committing a spree or mass killing. While it’s certainly been _alleged_ Rittenhouse was doing that, that has not been proven whatsoever. If Rittenhouse did actually act in self defense, he would not be considered an active shooter by typical use of that phrase. The one thing Rittenhouse was for sure–someone who was violating curfew, which Kenosha was under at that time. Rittenhouse was not helping “protect property” or the community, and if that is really why he was there, he was gravely misguided. If he was there hoping to precipitate conflict that would let him shoot someone, obviously that’s not just misguided it is evil. But as a jury and a court will look at this, based on known and provable evidence, I only see speculation to that effect at the moment, and very little proof. I go back to what I said earlier–being a right wing asshat and an idiot doesn’t make Rittenhouse a murderer, and it doesn’t intrinsically prove he wasn’t acting in self defense, only the facts of the incident can prove that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/176 "2021-11-06T15:34:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > **Active shooter also generally refers to a gunman who has chosen to attack a civilian population for purposes of committing a spree or mass killing.** While it’s certainly been _alleged_ Rittenhouse was doing that, that has not been proven whatsoever. If Rittenhouse did actually act in self defense, he would not be considered an active shooter by typical use of that phrase. (Bolding mine) I’m curious: what is the method most often recommended for a listener to discern that much detail regarding intent from the sound of gunfire? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/177 "2021-11-06T15:44:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There is also not any clear evidence Rittenhouse was part of a “mob” Oh? Then what are the criteria for mob membership? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/178 "2021-11-06T15:49:56Z")
Mob is plural. But you continue to focus in on things that have no bearing on the case. There is nothing wrong with that. If you want him to go to jail because he’s an asshole that’s your prerogative. You just might be very disappointed with what is actually brought up in trial. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/179 "2021-11-06T15:52:23Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > But you continue to focus in on things that have no bearing on the case. There is nothing wrong with that. If you want him to go to jail because he’s an asshole that’s your prerogative. You just might be very disappointed with what is actually brought up in trial. Yall are talking right past each other. Yes, I agree, the legal code as it currently stands likely finds Rittenhouse guilty of no wrongdoings whatsoever. Morally, he is a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798/180 "2021-11-06T16:03:31Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > **Active shooter also generally refers to a gunman who has chosen to attack a civilian population for purposes of committing a spree or mass killing.** While it’s certainly been _alleged_ Rittenhouse was doing that, that has not been proven whatsoever. If Rittenhouse did actually act in self defense, he would not be considered an active shooter by typical use of that phrase. > > (Bolding mine) > I’m curious: what is the method most often recommended for a listener to discern that much detail regarding intent from the sound of gunfire? If you are hoping for a Rittenhouse conviction that might not be the road you want to go down. One of the main contentions by the defense is that seconds before Rosenbaum lunged at Rittenhouse a gunshot came from the same direction which led to a reasonable belief that he was in danger. In a post a while ago Martin pointed out this is a case where it could be found that both sides reasonably acted in self defense given the circumstances. But keep in mind the reasonableness of the self defense claim has to be looked at 3 times. It’s not all or nothing. This article does a pretty good job of explaining what is needed in a self defense case. > **[Kyle Rittenhouse trial: When can you shoot as self-defence?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59138213)** > > A US teenager, 18, is now on trial over a fatal altercation during protests in Wisconsin last year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rittenhouse-trial/953798.md?page=10)