# The Rodney King beating: what should have done instead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637 "2012-06-19T13:28:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/81 "2012-06-20T12:47:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To hear some people tell it, the extremely intoxicated are abnormally fast, strong, coordinated and well-nigh impervious pain, and they’re vulnerable only to being clubbed. Unusually large and muscular people (King was 6’ 3", 230 pounds) are abnormally strong, whether drunk or sober. If a man like that lands a punch, the officer on the receiving end could be severely injured. He was coordinated enough to lead police on a high-speed chase without crashing. The officers did not yet know whether he was armed. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Using a baton is just like using a taser or using tear gas: if it’s not working, you stop. ..They should have shield rushed him or blanketed him. (They make kevlar shields and blankets for this purpose.) Presumably they didn’t have riot shields or blankets on hand (this was 1991). So if the baton action isn’t resulting in compliance, you stop hitting him and…do what? If you let him get up (as he kept trying to do, instead of obeying commands to lay down and put his hands behind his head), he’s going to be _harder_ to subdue. If he gets his hands into his pockets, they could come out with a gun or knife, at which point they would have had to shoot him. The beating stopped the instant he put his hands behind his head, his first clear indication of compliance since the moment he threw the four cops off of him. Once he was cuffed, he was not beaten further. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/82 "2012-06-20T13:16:57Z")
Question: should police officers be willing to take a few punches in subduing a suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/83 "2012-06-20T13:43:50Z")
Probably not, but the only way to guarantee you won’t get punched is to incapacitate them from long range. I don’t think anyone thinks the cops were totally unjustified in pulling batons. It’s just that there’s clearly a point where they passed beyond “subduing” King and moved into “beating” him. One gratuitous blow is one thing, but an extra 10 or 20 is, I think you’d agree, pushing it a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/84 "2012-06-20T14:07:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Probably not, but the only way to guarantee you won’t get punched is to incapacitate them from long range. I don’t think anyone thinks the cops were totally unjustified in pulling batons. It’s just that there’s clearly a point where they passed beyond “subduing” King and moved into “beating” him. One gratuitous blow is one thing, but an extra 10 or 20 is, I think you’d agree, pushing it a bit. Given his strength and size, I think the only point at which I would feel comfortable stopping the beatdown and saying to myself “I think we will be able to safely get handcuffs on this guy now” is when King actually puts his hands behind his head, communicating his willingness to surrender. Of course this could have been a ruse to temporarily stop the beating, which means that approaching King at that point was not a risk-free choice for the officers. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/85 "2012-06-20T14:11:07Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The beating stopped the instant he put his hands behind his head, his first clear indication of compliance since the moment he threw the four cops off of him. Once he was cuffed, he was not beaten further. …you know, as I watch[the video again](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w-SP7iuM6k), and watch them whack him over and over again with their nightsticks, followed by kicks from one officer, and kicks from another, and then the stomp to the head, the only real response I can give to your post is WTF? > [@](#): > > Given his strength and size, I think the only point at which I would feel comfortable stopping the beatdown and saying to myself “I think we will be able to safely get handcuffs on this guy now” is when King actually puts his hands behind his head, communicating his willingness to surrender. Of course this could have been a ruse to temporarily stop the beating, which means that approaching King at that point was not a risk-free choice for the officers. Can you show me any police department in the western world where this is standard operating procedure for dealing with a non-compliant subject? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/86 "2012-06-20T14:38:53Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Given his strength and size, I think the only point at which I would feel comfortable stopping the beatdown and saying to myself “I think we will be able to safely get handcuffs on this guy now” is when King actually puts his hands behind his head, communicating his willingness to surrender. Of course this could have been a ruse to temporarily stop the beating, which means that approaching King at that point was not a risk-free choice for the officers. That’s as may be, but I suspect it was pretty difficult for him to put his hands behind his head when he was writhing in pain. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/87 "2012-06-20T14:42:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Question: should police officers be willing to take a few punches in subduing a suspect? Generally, no. Occasionally, yes. I fully support the idea that LEOs are people doing a job, and they should be able to do their job with a tolerable level of harassment and risk. However, their job is one where they WILL be at risk from time to time. Should a LEO be willing to take a bullet while on duty? Generally, I don’t believe getting shot is an acceptable work environment, but if a loony is walking the streets waving a loaded gun, the LEOs don’t get to run away like the rest of us. Getting shot at is way worse than being punched, and occasionally there’s no way around the fact that the LEO is going to be putting himself at risk when a specific situation arises. When you get to the point of trading off the chance of a bloody lip vs. beating a man half to death, that’s when the LEO has to step up and take the risk that his job entails. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/88 "2012-06-20T15:26:43Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > Yet we have a bunch of people whose closest brush with violence is playing video games telling us all how it should have been handled. Make your argument without taking potshots at other posters, please. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/89 "2012-06-20T16:03:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This comment is stupid. If you’re going to blame someone other than the rioters themselves, the people to blame are the LAPD for the long history of brutality and discrimination as well as practices that were guaranteed to cause problems and the jurors who rather stupidly decided to acquit the police officers of the beating. The blame for the acquittal does not belong with the jurors, it belongs with the prosecutor. The prosecution picked a charge that required them to prove the cops intended to _kill_ King. Yeah, right. Cops with deadly weapons intended to kill him, failed to do so, then suddenly all decided at once to let him live. It was an impossible to believe, let alone prove, element of the charge. The prosecution then brought the charge in such a way as to preclude conviction for any lesser offense. It was all or nothing. My take is that the prosecution didn’t _want_ the cops convicted, and so charged them in such a way that conviction was impossible. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/90 "2012-06-20T16:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Cheshire Human] The blame for the acquittal does not belong with the jurors, it belongs with the prosecutor. The prosecution picked a charge that required them to prove the cops intended to kill King. Yeah, right. Cops with deadly weapons intended to kill him, failed to do so, then suddenly all decided at once to let him live. It was an impossible to believe, let alone prove, element of the charge. The prosecution then brought the charge in such a way as to preclude conviction for any lesser offense. It was all or nothing. My take is that the prosecution didn’t want the cops convicted, and so charged them in such a way that conviction was impossible. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for this? I thought the charge was use of excessive force (or some legal-esque language to that effect). This is all [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King) says about it: > [@](#): > > Post-arrest events > > King was taken to Pacifica Hospital immediately after his arrest. He suffered a fractured facial bone, a broken right ankle, and numerous bruises and lacerations.[27] In a negligence claim filed with the city, King alleged he had suffered “11 skull fractures, permanent brain damage, broken [bones and teeth], kidney damage [and] emotional and physical trauma.”[28] Blood and urine samples taken from King five hours after his arrest showed that he could be presumed intoxicated under California law. The tests also showed traces of marijuana (26 ng/ml), but no indication of PCP or any other illegal drug.[28] At Pacifica Hospital, where King was taken for initial treatment, nurses reported that the officers who accompanied King (including Wind) openly joked and bragged about the number of times King had been hit.[29] King sued the city over the beating, settling for $3.8 million.[30] > The officers > > The Los Angeles district attorney charged officers Koon, Powell, Briseno and Wind with use of excessive force. While Sergeant Koon did not strike King and had only used the Taser, he was the supervisory officer at the scene and was charged for “willfully permitting and failing to take action to stop the unlawful assault.” The initial judge was replaced, and the new judge changed the venue, as well as the jury pool, citing contamination of the jury pool by the media coverage. The new venue was a new courthouse in Simi Valley in neighboring Ventura County. The jury consisted of Ventura County residents—ten white, one Latino and one Asian. The prosecutor, Terry White, was African American. On April 29, 1992, the jury acquitted three of the officers, but could not agree about one of the charges for Powell.[9] > > Los Angeles Mayor Tom Bradley said, “The jury’s verdict will not blind us to what we saw on that videotape. The men who beat Rodney King do not deserve to wear the uniform of the L.A.P.D.”[31] President George H. W. Bush said, “Viewed from outside the trial, it was hard to understand how the verdict could possibly square with the video. Those civil rights 6with whom I met were stunned. And so was I and so was Barbara and so were my kids.”[32] > Los Angeles riots and the aftermath > Main article: 1992 Los Angeles riots > > The news of acquittal triggered the Los Angeles riots of 1992. By the time the police, the U.S. Army, Marines and National Guard restored order, the casualties included 53 deaths, 2,383 injuries, more than 7,000 fires, damages to 3,100 businesses, and nearly $1 billion in financial losses. Smaller riots occurred in other cities such as San Francisco, Las Vegas in neighboring Nevada and as far east as Atlanta, Georgia. > Federal trial of officers > > After the riots, the United States Department of Justice reinstated the investigation and obtained an indictment of violations of federal civil rights against the four officers in the United States District Court for the Central District of California. The federal trial focused more on the evidence as to the training of officers instead of just relying on the videotape of the incident. On March 9 of the 1993 trial, King took the witness stand and described to the jury the events as he remembered them.[33] The jury found Officer Laurence Powell and Sergeant Stacey Koon guilty, and they were subsequently sentenced to 32 months in prison, while Timothy Wind and Theodore Briseño were acquitted of all charges.[9] -XT ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/91 "2012-06-20T16:43:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s as may be, but I suspect it was pretty difficult for him to put his hands behind his head when he was writhing in pain. If only he had had an opportunity to put his hands behind his head prior to that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/92 "2012-06-20T16:56:09Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > If only he had had an opportunity to put his hands behind his head prior to that. By that logic, they should just have shot him. “He had his chance!” ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/93 "2012-06-20T16:56:32Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > If only he had had an opportunity to put his hands behind his head prior to that. It does not matter, in any way shape or form, what happened before the struggle is over. As soon as the struggle is over, people expect that the police will stop all aggressive action. No one is saying that the urge to kick this guy is not understandable, just that it isn’t allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/94 "2012-06-20T18:40:27Z")
I’ve often wondered how history might have been better had the Rodney King incident turned out differently. **Scenario 1:** They try to subdue him, they order him to submit, he comes at the officers again, and they shoot him dead. Result: Dead offender, complaints from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, protests and maybe some violence in the community. Investigation by the LAPD and maybe the cop is punished, maybe not. **Scenario 2:** They keep trying to grapple with him and subdue him, King gets the better of at least one officer and either uses his weapon to shoot him or beats him severely enough to kill him or permanently disable him. Result: Nobody really cares, because it’s just another tragic but quickly forgotten tragedy for a cop. King is still in jail and has found Jesus. **Scenario 3:** They create a long standoff in which one man has multiple officers cowed because he won’t submit and they don’t want to keep hitting him, the SWAT team comes in, the scene becomes a circus, they somehow get him under control, and then the LAPD is roundly criticized for being bested by one crazy man. Many queries about why the officers were too timid to get one man to submit. \*\*Scenario 4: \*\*What really happened. Result: Lots of lives ruined, race relations set back yet again, innocent people dead or devastated from the riots. Of those options, I’ll take number 1. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/95 "2012-06-20T18:45:29Z")
You left out: **Scenario 2.5:** They keep trying to grapple with him and succeed, placing him in handcuffs and sending him off to jail without any long term injury to any party involved. The incident passes by without notice from the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/96 "2012-06-20T18:49:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You left out: > > **Scenario 2.5:** They keep trying to grapple with him and succeed, placing him in handcuffs and sending him off to jail without any long term injury to any party involved. The incident passes by without notice from the world at large. I was sticking to what I think (admittedly a subjective judgment) were the more likely scenarios. We all wish 2.5 was the actual outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/97 "2012-06-20T18:52:37Z")
It’s one thing to talk about other potential outcomes and another to pretend King grabbing a gun or a SWAT team getting involved is more likely than “group of cops on the scene subdues King while he’s on the ground without clubbing him 50 times.” ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/98 "2012-06-20T18:58:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s one thing to talk about other potential outcomes and another to pretend King grabbing a gun or a SWAT team getting involved is more likely than “group of cops on the scene subdues King while he’s on the ground without clubbing him 50 times.” No, actually I’m saying it’s more likely that the cops would have just shot him dead right there. (And I’d be okay with that. But that’s beside the point.) AFTER the Rodney King incident, how many cops just pulled out their guns and shot the guy rather than trying to subdue him with nonlethal means? We’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/99 "2012-06-20T19:13:55Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > I was sticking to what I think (admittedly a subjective judgment) were the more likely scenarios. We all wish 2.5 was the actual outcome. I have to disagree. 2.5 is not only the most likely scenario, it is the scenario that is played out countless times, every day. Each day, police subdue suspects by using proper techniques. They arrest combative suspects without injuring them, and avoid kicking and punching them after they are no longer a threat. This is NORMAL policing, and it happens everywhere, all the time. The Rodney King beating was an example of the kind of policing which does happen, but is not the norm. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637/100 "2012-06-20T19:17:31Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > I’ve often wondered how history might have been better had the Rodney King incident turned out differently. > > **Scenario 1:** They try to subdue him, they order him to submit, he comes at the officers again, and they shoot him dead. Result: Dead offender, complaints from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, protests and maybe some violence in the community. Investigation by the LAPD and maybe the cop is punished, maybe not. > > **Scenario 2:** They keep trying to grapple with him and subdue him, King gets the better of at least one officer and either uses his weapon to shoot him or beats him severely enough to kill him or permanently disable him. Result: Nobody really cares, because it’s just another tragic but quickly forgotten tragedy for a cop. King is still in jail and has found Jesus. > > **Scenario 3:** They create a long standoff in which one man has multiple officers cowed because he won’t submit and they don’t want to keep hitting him, the SWAT team comes in, the scene becomes a circus, they somehow get him under control, and then the LAPD is roundly criticized for being bested by one crazy man. Many queries about why the officers were too timid to get one man to submit. > > \*\*Scenario 4: \*\*What really happened. Result: Lots of lives ruined, race relations set back yet again, innocent people dead or devastated from the riots. > > Of those options, I’ll take number 1. There are other scenarios as well: [ul] [li]King crashes headfirst into another car killing himself, his passengers, and the occupants of the other car[/li][li]An officer has an accident during the high speed chase and is injured or killed[/li][li]King runs over a kid in the street and kills him[/li][/ul] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rodney-king-beating-what-should-have-done-instead/625637.md?page=6)