# The Role of Athletics in College **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 25, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323 "2012-07-25T08:10:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/21 "2012-07-26T02:25:04Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > There are several very questionable assumptions made in that study, but to keep it simple, I’ll stick to one thing - it is based on a 2004 study. 2004 is medieval history in terms of college athletic revenues. When the PAC 10 (now 12) contract expired in 2011, the league was being paid $54M in TV rights from ESPN and Fox, about 5.5M per team. > > The new contract they signed, plus the debut of the PAC-12 network, which goes on air in about 3 weeks, gives them approximately $30M per team annually over the 12 years of the contract. The study, even with it’s questionable assumptions, shows 80% of BCS schools making a profit, and when you add in new revenue of $20-$25M per school per annum, they’re all in the black. OK, then, you can check the NCAA’s numbers for 2004-2009 [here](http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/REV_EXP_2010.pdf). In 2009, the NCAA reports that 14 of the 120 FBS athletic programs made money. Of particular interest with respect to the TV deals is that expenses have increased faster than generated revenues, indicating that the influx of cash from those contracts is being directed back into the athletics programs and not to the universities’ general funds. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/22 "2012-07-26T03:33:20Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > OK, then, you can check the NCAA’s numbers for 2004-2009 [here](http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/REV_EXP_2010.pdf). In 2009, the NCAA reports that 14 of the 120 FBS athletic programs made money. Of particular interest with respect to the TV deals is that expenses have increased faster than generated revenues, indicating that the influx of cash from those contracts is being directed back into the athletics programs and not to the universities’ general funds. A) It was a voluntary survey with a 50% return rate (60/120 in 2009) Table 3.5 B) The top 25% of reporting schools reported an average of $3.1M in TV revenues, which tells me that very few of the BCS schools participated - the lowest of BCS schools would have more that $3.1M in revenues from TV. C) [2009 College Sports TV Revenue by Conference:](http://collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/25/2009-college-sports-tv-revenue-by-conference/) Big Ten - $242M SEC - $205M Big XII - $78M ACC - $67M PAC 10 - $58M Big East - $33M D) 2012 College Sports TV Revenue by Conference: Big Ten - $1B + Big Ten Network SEC - $3B Big XII - $2.6B ACC - $3.6B PAC 12 - $2.7B Big East - $200M (Due for new contract) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/23 "2012-07-26T03:33:43Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > I’m not commenting on whether the system could be changed. There’s not one subject taught in college that couldn’t be changed and the knowledge conveyed some other way. I’m not asking for a value judgement on the efficiency of the system only what role is currently being played by athletics. > > It seems that you are saying in your last paragraph that physical skills cannot be taught. Maybe instead you don’t feel that but don’t feel that physical skills are worth being taught? > > Do you feel the same about drama programs, theater and whatnot? Is that a legitimate educational pursuit or are colleges wasting their time preparing students for these careers? The strikeout rate for actors is enormous as well. I’m sure those kids could be doing something more productive with their time. College sports isn’t treated like an academic program. Freddy already pointed out that you can’t major in a sport and you don’t get credits for it. And more importantly, college sports programs are not based on the idea of teaching sports. You’re not going to be able to join the Trojans or the Wildcats or the Crimson Tide so you can learn how to play a sport or even just because you want to play. You get recruited for these teams because you’re already a top player. As I’ve said, you’re being drafted on to a minor league team. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/24 "2012-07-26T03:37:03Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The second won’t follow from the first. Baseball has minor leagues, but colleges still play baseball, and it’s the third most popular college sport. It isn’t as big as football or basketball, but that’s only because the height of the season is in summer when schools are out of session. > > The NFL and NBA could start well-funded D-leagues tomorrow, and college sports wouldn’t go away. Judging from baseball, a lot of quality athletes would continue to choose college over the D-league. And people would continue to watch. The only way that people will stop caring about college sports is if the colleges stop playing. > > Do you believe colleges should _actively shut down_ their sports programs, because they hinder the educational mission? No, I have no problem with colleges having sports programs. College students should have opportunities to play sports. I just don’t like how it’s become a de facto minor-league system. College students should be in college for academic reasons and aspiring athletes should be free to enter professional minor leagues. There’s no reason to mix these two separate things together. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/25 "2012-07-26T03:39:21Z")
I’d like to point out that the schools could prositute their cheerleaders and bring in a lot more money than the football program does. So if the goal is raising money, then college football isn’t a very efficient means of doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/26 "2012-07-26T07:45:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > College sports isn’t treated like an academic program. Freddy already pointed out that you can’t major in a sport and you don’t get credits for it. > > And more importantly, college sports programs are not based on the idea of teaching sports. You’re not going to be able to join the Trojans or the Wildcats or the Crimson Tide so you can learn how to play a sport or even just because you want to play. You get recruited for these teams because you’re already a top player. As I’ve said, you’re being drafted on to a minor league team. You’re no more a top player than the academic who aces the SAT’s and honors courses. They are both top performers at one level but still have much to learn at the higher level. To get closer to the OP. You do not feel sports serve an educational role. I can understand the argument and appreciate the argument that you and **Freddy** put forward. I think tradition plays more a factor in why athletics aren’t a course of study than the institutions having decided that they shouldn’t be. Ok, so it doesn’t fill an academic role. You suggest that it fills in as a minor league for major sports but again, that’s relatively few sports. Most college sports can’t fill this role. They have to fill another role. You agree that “College students should have opportunities to play sports.” I ask, to what purpose then? What role do you see the non minor league surrogate sports filling for a school? Is it entertainment? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/27 "2012-07-26T12:00:54Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > A) It was a voluntary survey with a 50% return rate (60/120 in 2009) Table 3.5 > B) The top 25% of reporting schools reported an average of $3.1M in TV revenues, which tells me that very few of the BCS schools participated - the lowest of BCS schools would have more that $3.1M in revenues from TV. > C) [2009 College Sports TV Revenue by Conference:](http://collegesportsinfo.com/2009/12/25/2009-college-sports-tv-revenue-by-conference/) > > Big Ten - $242M > SEC - $205M > Big XII - $78M > ACC - $67M > PAC 10 - $58M > Big East - $33M > D) 2012 College Sports TV Revenue by Conference: > > Big Ten - $1B + Big Ten Network > SEC - $3B > Big XII - $2.6B > ACC - $3.6B > PAC 12 - $2.7B > Big East - $200M (Due for new contract) You’re conflating revenue and profit - the fact that a 12-school conference takes in $3B doesn’t mean that the participant schools get $250M each, and it doesn’t mean that they put what money they do bring in back into the school’s general fund. How about a cite for your original statement (“if you go to a big time football (BCS) school, virtually no money flows from the Universities general fund (or any fund) into the athletic department”) that includes both revenues and expenses? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/28 "2012-07-26T12:43:45Z")
> **[Highest Net Income Amongst Athletics Departments](https://businessofcollegesports.com/finance/highest-net-income-amongst-athletics-departments/)** > > To conclude this week’s series, BusinessofCollegeSports.com will list in order the athletics departments earning the highest net income  in 2010-11. Issue has been raised by... 48 of 66 BCS programs in 2010-2011 made a profit. Of the six BCS conferences, only the BIG Ten had a “new” TV contract in place at that time. The other five either had their new contracts begin in 2011-2012, or will have a new one this year or in the next two. The SEC will be swimming in money in a couple of years. These new contracts will at least double what the schools get now from TV. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/29 "2012-07-26T13:48:46Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Do you feel the same about drama programs, theater and whatnot? Is that a legitimate educational pursuit or are colleges wasting their time preparing students for these careers? The strikeout rate for actors is enormous as well. I’m sure those kids could be doing something more productive with their time. Except there aren’t umpteen scholarships given for drama students or private tutors or special treatment or high school scouting and recruiting. They pay or otherwise earn their way through college like everyone else and live with the consequences and loans on their own. And drama also includes fields like lighting and stage design, which do have real world application. And they receive college credits, so their classes have been scrutinized and vetted by the professorship and deemed worthy of contributing towards a diploma. Not saying drama is an awesome field, just that using as a comparison in this context doesn’t really work since the students receive actual credit and aren’t financially pampered along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/30 "2012-07-26T17:44:49Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > You suggest that it fills in as a minor league for major sports but again, that’s relatively few sports. Most college sports can’t fill this role. They have to fill another role. > > You agree that “College students should have opportunities to play sports.” I ask, to what purpose then? What role do you see the non minor league surrogate sports filling for a school? Is it entertainment? I’d like to see school sports like football and basketball being played at the same level as school sports like fencing or rowing - or other extracurricular activities like chess club or band: something that students are doing for themselves not something that’s being run as a semi-professional revenue-generating league. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/31 "2012-07-27T09:13:21Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Except there aren’t umpteen scholarships given for drama students or private tutors or special treatment or high school scouting and recruiting. They pay or otherwise earn their way through college like everyone else and live with the consequences and loans on their own. And drama also includes fields like lighting and stage design, which do have real world application. And they receive college credits, so their classes have been scrutinized and vetted by the professorship and deemed worthy of contributing towards a diploma. > > Not saying drama is an awesome field, just that using as a comparison in this context doesn’t really work since the students receive actual credit and aren’t financially pampered along the way. Lighting and stage design have real world applications outside of the entertainment field? I’m sure they do but I can’t honestly think of one right now. How big is the demand for non entertainment related stage design work? Also, the differences between how the two activities are funded isn’t really the point. I do not believe that anyone sat down and compared the two and decided hey, we think drama is important so we’ll make it a degree program and athletics are not, so we won’t. These situations evolved from real world factors that evolved into the current, not ideal to say the least situation. I’m really not defending the status quo though I’m being replied to as if I did. If the situation though is to be changed, wouldn’t you really want to know what is really in play in order to make the best choice. Maybe, it’s a question that cannot be answered. The closest I’ve gotten is that it is a valid role that is closer to what most sports do but not like what the big two do which doesn’t really tell me what that role is or why it’s important. It seems like whatever system is in place should primarily revolve around whatever that role is. You would treat sports totally differently if it’s role was cash cow as opposed to student improvement ( the role I’m calling education and I see things like chess club and band in this role as well. These are education rounders not core disciplines but they do serve a purpose. ). If it’s just entertainment then it doesn’t belong at all IMHO. Colleges certainly can provide entertainment but it shouldn’t be in the business of manufacturing it. Leave that to the professionals. I’m no fan of physical activity but at least when I was growing up we were required to practice it every day at school in PE class. There has to be some kind of benefit or they wouldn’t do that. At the elementary school level we’re having kids play t-ball and kickball and dodgeball where allowable by law. Why are we doing this if physical activity isn’t part of a well rounded education? What’s the point? Mere babysitting? There’s not enough real stuff to teach kids? It’s not a cash cow at that level in any sport. It can’t be to entertain the kids because the number that actually enjoy it to that level is rather small and it’s not organized league stuff in any case. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323/32 "2012-07-27T13:46:05Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > These situations evolved from real world factors that evolved into the current, not ideal to say the least situation. I’m really not defending the status quo though I’m being replied to as if I did. Fair enough, my apologies. When I was in college (early 2000’s) a physical education course was a requirement (and there were a plethora of choices). I believe this is consistent with the OP’s contention that physical activity is deemed part of a well-rounded education, and I agree that it should be. And I don’t have a problem with players de facto majoring in football or whatever. The fact that they get special treatment over other students during the admissions process and during their stay to me is what doesn’t jive. Most colleges don’t say this person is good at math, or drama, or english but a dummy at everything else, let’s give them admission over better candidates, a free ride, and free tutors. Nor do they send people to find high schoolers who are specialized in one area and mediocre in others. If college sports is just another field of education, wish they would play by the same rules as every other department. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-athletics-in-college/629323.md?page=1)