# The role of the working poor in our society **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904 "2009-07-31T19:26:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/181 "2009-08-03T03:34:07Z")
Current high-tax regions are experiencing subpar economic growth. Your claim of high taxes causing economic development was unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/182 "2009-08-03T03:36:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Pretty damn well. Lots of people that are born into poverty end up making something of themselves. You are deluding yourself. A very, very small percentage or poor people ever make it out. Your system offers them little more than a lottery ticket. There are millions of hard working poor who are stuck there because the system is stacked against them. Your system lets a very few out, and the rest pass the cycle on to their children. You should be very afraid. Even Caligula understood about bread and circuses. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/183 "2009-08-03T03:36:15Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > No, I and many of my friends were poor. Many people who are poor do not lose. The first wave of immigrants from Europe and Asia were dirt poor but they found a way up. You cannot use the phrase “always lose” because it is wrong. He’s right “\*mostly \*always lose” is better. > [@](#): > > If you teach your children to “eat the rich”, you are brainwashing them to become life-long victims of their own pointless hatred. Not if you do the sauce right. Then it’s just yummy. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/184 "2009-08-03T03:44:29Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Current high-tax regions are experiencing subpar economic growth. Your claim of high taxes causing economic development was unfounded. Thanks, but it’s a minor point and it looks like even it was being heavily contested in that thread. And I’d still rather live in Sweden, so. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/185 "2009-08-03T03:44:45Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > If you teach your children to “eat the rich”, you are brainwashing them to become life-long victims of their own pointless hatred. You don’t think it will occur to them on their own, after years of hard work, only to learn the system is stacked against them? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/186 "2009-08-03T03:59:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are deluding yourself. A very, very small percentage or poor people ever make it out. Your system offers them little more than a lottery ticket. There are millions of hard working poor who are stuck there because the system is stacked against them. Your system lets a very few out, and the rest pass the cycle on to their children. There are 300 million Americans. At least half (probably more than half) are descendants of immigrants and not of the original colonists that lived on North American soil in 1776. Most of the immigrants (European or Asian) came to this country with virtually no money. By your logic, the majority of 300 million Americans today should be poor because you say only a “very very small percentage of poor people” ever make it out. The current demographics of the United States of America proves otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/187 "2009-08-03T04:02:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You say that conservatives want feudalism through economic coercion, but you want feudalism through political coercion. No, I want the common people to have power; you want them to have none. You want the wealthy to have free rein in the economic realm because that means that the common people will be unable to fight back; you want to restrict the power of the government because that’s the only way the common people can exercise power. Especially since one of the few functions of the government the libertarians want is the police; which in this context means that while the government won’t help the common people, it’ll stamp down on any who get desperate enough to try violence. Just like the good old days in other words, where the government and the businesses worked together to crush the majority of the population. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You want the government to have its foot on the poor’s neck by making them dependent on government handouts and its foot on the rich’s neck by making them beg and play nice for tax rates under 100 percent. The rich are parasitic vermin. As for the poor, they are already dependent and always have been. Letting them starve to death like you want won’t change that, except by killing them. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You don’t understand what money really means, so you think that rich people grow it on trees and will always have it to fund your social programs so you can keep poor people dependent. A free market system allows people to benefit from their hard work, so they’ll work hard. Garbage. Most people never have benefited much by their hard work, and never will. The rich get their money by extracting it from the people who actually do work hard and innovate; the people who do the actual work get little in return for it. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Under my system, the poor can become rich through talent and hard work, and they are not incentivized to remain poor as under Der Trihs’s system. No, under your system they can work hard and die young, or not work and die younger. And either way they stay poor. Poor, and slaves in all but name; with the kind of mistreatment that implies. > [@Ruminator](#): > > No, I and many of my friends were poor. Many people who are poor do not lose. The first wave of immigrants from Europe and Asia were dirt poor but they found a way up. That was then, this is now. They would be much more likely to stay poor now. > [@Ruminator](#): > > No I can’t. I was never taught to envy the rich. It is simply not a productive mode of thought. If you teach your children to “eat the rich”, you are brainwashing them to become life-long victims of their own pointless hatred. Nonsense. The rich are and have always been the enemy of the poor; actively trying to exploit them and do them harm.The poor should always fear and hate the rich out of self preservation, because the rich hate and fear the poor. What we have in America is a one way class war where one side, the common people refuses to acknowledge what is happening even as they are driven ever farther into subjugation. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/188 "2009-08-03T04:21:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That was then, this is now. They would be much more likely to stay poor now. Yes of course, there’s always some excuse isn’t there? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/189 "2009-08-03T04:22:32Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > The current demographics of the United States of America proves otherwise. Your math is faulty. I suggest you read up on something called “[pedigree collapse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse)”. Most Americans who descended from immigrants share many of the same ancestors, so it is faulty to point out that most immigrants make it if they try. They don’t; why do you think African Americans are proportionally over-represented in the lower economic class? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/190 "2009-08-03T04:23:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > … What we have in America is a one way class war where one side, the common people refuses to acknowledge what is happening even as they are driven ever farther into subjugation. Precisely. The wealthy are united on the one issue of getting more; the masses fragmented by culture wars incited by Fox “News”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/191 "2009-08-03T04:37:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your math is faulty. I suggest you read up on something called “[pedigree collapse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse)”. Most Americans who descended from immigrants share many of the same ancestors, so it is faulty to point out that most immigrants make it if they try. Excerpt from the following article: [http://www.amconmag.com/article/2002/nov/18/00014](http://www.amconmag.com/article/2002/nov/18/00014) _“One demographic study concluded that, had there been no immigration after 1790, the settlers’ posterity alone—including African slaves’ and freemen’s descendants—would have grown by 1990 to approximately half the size of the actual population, which implies roughly half of Americans still have roots in the founding stock whose existence the [Nation of Immigrants] creed denies.”_ It’s an article that tilts the immigrant numbers in your favor not mine. In any case, the math doesn’t change. The majority of American citizens today should be stuck in poverty. I see that they are not. It does not compute. > [@](#): > > They don’t; why do you think African Americans are proportionally over-represented in the lower economic class? Because they are not making money. Why did Jewish and Asian immigrants have a higher ratio of economic success even considering no help from affirmative action? Because they found a way to earn more money. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/192 "2009-08-03T06:43:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You say that conservatives want feudalism through economic coercion, but you want feudalism through political coercion. You want the government to have its foot on the poor’s neck by making them dependent on government handouts and its foot on the rich’s neck by making them beg and play nice for tax rates under 100 percent. I assume since you feel so strongly against government aid you’re gonna return the government grants you used for your education. _Gets popcorn to watch hypocritical self serving justification and/or backpeddling by you_ ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/193 "2009-08-03T11:16:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I assume since you feel so strongly against government aid you’re gonna return the government grants you used for your education. > > … Another example of big govt squandering taxpayer dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/194 "2009-08-03T11:28:14Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Because they are not making money. > > Why did Jewish and Asian immigrants have a higher ratio of economic success even considering no help from affirmative action? Because they found a way to earn more money. And to what do you attribute this disparity? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/195 "2009-08-03T11:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > No fruit comparisons required…the stats still reveal that 80% of Americans (be they adults or children or single parents or in dual earner households with or w/o children) bring in less, mostly substantially less, than 92 grand a yr. So now $92,000 a year is the bottom threshold for middle class? Way to move the goal posts. Median income for US families is something like $58K ([cite](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/f07ar.html)). A definition of “middle class” that is almost double the median is, almost by definition, meaningless. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/196 "2009-08-03T12:01:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I assume since you feel so strongly against government aid you’re gonna return the government grants you used for your education. > > _Gets popcorn to watch hypocritical self serving justification and/or backpeddling by you_ As I explained in another thread, I will respond to any prima facie argument you make regarding this. Until such time as you do so, you only keep showing your inability to construct an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/197 "2009-08-03T13:10:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are deluding yourself. A very, very small percentage or poor people ever make it out. Nonsense. > [@](#): > > Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005. > …the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups. [Cite (PDF).](http://www.treas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf) > [@](#): > > A 1992 Treasury Department study showed that between 1979 and 1988, 86 percent of those in the bottom income quintile moved to a higher quintile [Cite](http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/bg1418.cfm#pgfId=1127419). > [@](#): > > Upward short-term mobility for those in the bottom quintile has improved since 1990-91, with no significant offsetting increase in downward short-term mobility. [Cite (PDF again)](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/Hertz_MobilityAnalysis.pdf). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/198 "2009-08-03T15:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > …Children from low-income families have only a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent of the income distribution, versus children of the rich who have about a 22 percent chance… You overlooked this. Glad to help. And this: > [@](#): > > …By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults… Gosh, if it were anybody else, I would think you had carefully cherry-picked! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/199 "2009-08-03T15:28:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > As I explained in another thread, I will respond to any prima facie argument you make regarding this. Until such time as you do so, you only keep showing your inability to construct an argument. You’re showing how hollow and hypocritical your words are. Little Rand-wannabe can’t even pay for his own education. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/200 "2009-08-03T15:30:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You overlooked this. Glad to help. > > And this: > > Gosh, if it were anybody else, I would think you had carefully cherry-picked! lol [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=11)