# The role of the working poor in our society **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904 "2009-07-31T19:26:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/321 "2009-08-07T03:45:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > No, the rich and middle class significantly outnumber the poor. And they have a vested interest in holding on to their wealth. Who said anything about the middle class? Why do they automatically side with the rich? Seems like they’d get some utility out of a good safety net too. Especially UHC. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/322 "2009-08-07T04:02:59Z")
Rand Rover: I think examples of condescension toward the and contempt for the poor have appeared all by themselves. Do you still demand a cite from me? Has everybody watched [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gy6zEU-T74&feature=channel_page)? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/323 "2009-08-07T04:26:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > They’re gorging themselves on soda now. That’s interesting. It couldn’t possibly a combination of healthy foods being more expensive/longer to prepare, coupled with less time to spend cooking. No it has to be the worst possible thing. On what planet is diet soda more expensive, or takes longer to “prepare”? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/324 "2009-08-07T04:35:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s insane? Telling me that rich folks build industry and employ people. Obviously, they don’t. Their money does. You could as easily replace Rich Guy One with Rich Guy Two, and the effect is the same. […] > > The people are not particularly significant, their money is significant. You keep dodging the question because you’d rather complain about rich people instead of discussing some of the points brought up. Let’s try again. I can’t show you the exact full-page ad in The Economist magazine for Ontario Canada but I found a webpage that was similar. To attempt to add constructive dialogue to this discussion, I ask you to read Ontario’s web page. You’ve seen ads for beer, cars, and blue jeans but I’m guessing you’ve never seen an advertisement for economic development of a country before: [http://www.investinontario.com/whyontario/default.asp](http://www.investinontario.com/whyontario/default.asp) There are similar ads like that from countries like Chile South America, Sweden, Singapore, etc. Ask yourself honestly **who** that ad is targeting. They are not targeting people with “money”. They are targeting business leaders (who happen to have money). What’s the nuance between a person who’s just rich vs a business leader who is rich? The nuance is that Ontario is not targeting Paris Hilton and her millions. Paris is a dingbat airhead who cannot bring economic improvement to Ontario. They are targeting people like Michael Dell of Dell Computers who might want to open a call center there. Or they are targeting the CEO from Sony to maybe open a chip fabrication facility. If you truly believe Ontario’s advertisement is targeting **anybody** with money, you’re saying that Ontario doesn’t care whether they get Paris Hilton or Michael Dell. You’re saying that Ontario would consider Paris Hilton interchangeable with Michael Dell – just replace rich guy #1’s money with rich gal #2’s “money”. If that’s what you’re saying, then I guess you’re being stubborn (insane?) and there’s nothing further to discuss. The number of rich people that run businesses outnumber non-productive socialites. Yes you are correct – Paris Hilton doesn’t bring jobs, but she’s a tiny speck in the vast sea of rich people. She just happens to be on TV a lot. Stop watching TV and getting your image of “rich” people burned in to your brain by Paris Hilton! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/325 "2009-08-07T10:49:25Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > On what planet is diet soda more expensive, or takes longer to “prepare”? Let me dumb it down for you since you appearently need the help. Me Tao, you Carol. The soda thing was a slur. I know 4 letter words are kinda big for you, but do think you could say it? I think you can. Say it with me now. Slur. Good. Now the causes, I’m sorry too fancy a word for you, I mean, the the things that make happen bad diet are more then just soda choice. ---
**Author:** ![Knightrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7c8e57/32.png) [@Knightrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knightrunner)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/326 "2009-08-07T11:05:02Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > I’ve known just as many middle class/rich people who do the same thing. Matter of fact my best friend (COMPLETELY OUT OF TOUCH) is the offspring of a rather wealthy family. She has been trying to live on her own, after trying to recover from alcoholism and drug abuse. She was getting her electrictity turned off…but still had enough money for cigerettes and potato chips!! > And yes…poverty is a cultural construct BUT in much of the rest of the world, the middle class doesn’t even exist. It’s basicly giant sky scrapers cheek to jowl with Sowetos! Yeah, wealthy people also sometimes make bad, self-destructive decisions. You’ll get no argument from me about that; it’s pretty much the basis of the entire tabloid industry. On the other hand, I think it’s disingenuous for someone to claim that they don’t make enough money and then spend the money they do have on junk they don’t need and that actually _increases_ their medical expenses. Hmmm . . I don’t know of a country that doesn’t have a recognizable middle class (maybe North Korea? Somalia?). This class is often far smaller than in the west (and sometimes of a different ethnic group than the majority), but it’s always there. Are you saying that, in the developing world, poor people wouldn’t consider the life led by local professionals to be within their reach, or that they simply don’t distinguish between their country’s own upper and middle classes? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/327 "2009-08-07T12:39:27Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Basically you want people to suffer. You want kids to suffer in poverty No, I think we just don’t want to have to be responsible for paying for people’s mistakes. > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > Who said anything about the middle class? Why do they automatically side with the rich? Seems like they’d get some utility out of a good safety net too. Especially UHC. No one is saying anything about the middle class. Everyone seems to think that there are only poor people and mega-rich tycoons in this country and that clearly isn’t the case. The middle class don’t automatically side with the rich, but it is generally the middle class who is hit hardest by tax increases. They have less disposible income however they are often less eligable for social services. The problem, which I think most of you don’t seem to grasp, is that there isn’t an infinite amount of money to pay for all these safety nets and social services. And just because someone makes over $100,000 a year, does not give you claim to their earnings just because you think you need it more. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/328 "2009-08-07T13:10:12Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > There are similar ads like that from countries like Chile South America, Sweden, Singapore, etc. Ask yourself honestly **who** that ad is targeting. They are not targeting people with “money”. They are targeting business leaders (who happen to have money). Here’s similar page for Sweden with a downloadable PDF: [http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Business/Doing-business/Facts/Invest-in-Sweden-report-200607/](http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Business/Doing-business/Facts/Invest-in-Sweden-report-200607/) Here’s the quote from page 3 of the PDF, Fredrik Reinfeldt (Prime Minister of Sweden): \*“Dear executives, experts and researchers: I warmly welcome you, your businesses and your families to Sweden. Please take a closer look at what we offer.” \* Let’s compare the Prime Minister’s greeting to your quote again: > [@elucidator](#): > > “Perhaps you can tell us why it wouldn’t be in the interests of the poor to feed the sorry asses of the rich into woodchippers, and use the result for compost? The poor can’t do without them? They provide some benefit?” Please explain why the Prime Minister of Sweden, Canada, etc are trying to attract the “sorry asses of the rich”? Since the rich provide no benefit, what’s the point? So who is spouting out words of insanity? The Prime Minister or you? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/329 "2009-08-07T13:17:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Rand Rover: I think examples of condescension toward the and contempt for the poor have appeared all by themselves. Do you still demand a cite from me? Like I said, no one ever follows up. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/330 "2009-08-07T13:50:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Let me dumb it down for you since you appearently need the help. > > Me Tao, you Carol. The soda thing was a slur. I know 4 letter words are kinda big for you, but do think you could say it? I think you can. Say it with me now. Slur. Good. Now the causes, I’m sorry too fancy a word for you, I mean, the the things that make happen bad diet are more then just soda choice. [Moderator Hat ON] Tao, these sort of insults are unacceptable for this forum. You were just told to take it to the BBQ pit if you must insult people; please do so. This is an official warning. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/331 "2009-08-07T15:30:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …For example, do you include Bill Gates in your definition of “rich person”? What about tax lawyers who make over $250,000 per year (ahem)? We of the SDMB People’s Revolutionary Front (Trotskyist) have recently defined our position on this. Mr. Gates has been removed from the Straight to the Wall list in recognition of his work in combatting malaria on a global scale. Tax lawyers are also exempt, but for a different reason, any place where a drop of their blood falls, no grass grows nor any living thing prosper. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/332 "2009-08-07T15:38:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You have it ass-backwards. Where do you think their money comes from in the first place?.. Since you are already quite sure I have it bass-ackwards, you must already know. So, tell us, and save us all that much more time. > [@](#): > > …And yet unemployment has traditionally stayed more or less constant at around 4% in this country. In America, 4% would be about, what, 12 million people? (Registered mathtard here, I think I’m right…) So, what do we do with all these useless people? Clearly, they are morally bereft, they don’t work. If the morality of the work ethic is valid, isn’t the obverse equally valid? Why then should the rich be exempt? Is the possession of large amounts of money a sure indicator of God’s approval. (Don’t laugh - I’ve heard precisely this construct offered…) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/333 "2009-08-07T15:45:34Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > …So who is spouting out words of insanity? The Prime Minister or you? I have no idea what the Prime Minister is trying to achieve. I do note that he addresses the question to “executives, experts and researchers”, but did not know that these categories are precisely the same as “rich”. Given you all-encompassing expertise in all things Swedish, perhaps you can explain? And, of course, since we know the Swedes have been flagrantly and disastrously wrong for years now, perhaps they are simply wrong again? Perhaps they will turn to you for advice on how best to conduct themselves in the future. Or, still, to be fair, it could be that this example you offer undeniably and irrefutably proves your point beyond all debate. I trust you will forgive me and others if we withhold a crumb of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/334 "2009-08-07T16:10:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have no idea what the Prime Minister is trying to achieve. The brain from elucidator that typically writes posts with fanciful allusions to literature & the Bible is supposedly the same brain that can’t read the words the Prime Minster is saying and can’t ascertain what he’s trying to achieve. Yeah, riiiiiiigggggggggghht. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/335 "2009-08-07T18:03:01Z")
I don’t think I’ve EVER seen a discussion that needed a few definitions more than this one does. People here seem to be using very different definitions of words here. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/336 "2009-08-07T18:53:42Z")
Agreed, which is why I’ve been trying to get luci and Fear to define “rich” and “poor” for us, to no avail. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/337 "2009-08-07T19:04:54Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > I don’t think I’ve EVER seen a discussion that needed a few definitions more than this one does. And when **Rand Rover** asks a simple question to **elucidator** for his definition of “rich”, do we get a simple answer? No. Instead we get some [vague nonsense](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11420997&postcount=331) with hack poetry instead of an honest straight answer to help make progress in this discussion. It is annoying. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/338 "2009-08-07T19:09:51Z")
Well, we tend to be a bit suspicious, we think that ofttimes a request for definitions is an effort to drag the discussion into a semantic parsing contest. This has sometimes led to someone cutting and pasting a definition from a dictionary, which all sane Dopers know is an unspeakable affront. Might one ask what this is in aid of? How will a definition of “rich” further our discussion? (I am reminded of The Master, Mr. Clemens, who wrote an open letter to Commodore Vanderbilt, beseeching him to commit some uncharacteristic act of humanity. His definition of rich was to be content with what one had. He mourned for the greedy, who has twenty million but craves to have fifty, so is therefore impoverished by thirty million. By this definition, I am rather well off, but am unlikely to avail myself of your (no doubt excellent!) services and expertise. I fear the guard dogs posted outside your office would instantly detect that I have no credit rating whatsoever, and turn upon, and rend me…) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/339 "2009-08-07T19:26:20Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > I don’t think I’ve EVER seen a discussion that needed a few definitions more than this one does. People here seem to be using very different definitions of words here. For some of us who are formally educated in business, economics and accounting, we ARE using the specific definitions of words. And those are being countered by angry rants and emotional appeals. Also, I asked some specific questions further up but no one has bothered to answer on behalf of the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/340 "2009-08-07T19:44:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, we tend to be a bit suspicious, we think that ofttimes a request for definitions is an effort to drag the discussion into a semantic parsing contest. This has sometimes led to someone cutting and pasting a definition from a dictionary, which all sane Dopers know is an unspeakable affront. > > Might one ask what this is in aid of? How will a definition of “rich” further our discussion? How will it help the discussion?!?!?! Your jokes are lame. You say the following sentences with “ **rich** ” in them and we’re not allowed to ask what you mean? > [@elucidator](#): > > Apparently, **rich people** are those people who open factories, which I had always thought were owned by stockholders. > > Perhaps you can tell us why it wouldn’t be in the interests of the poor to feed the **sorry asses of the rich** into woodchippers, and use the result for compost? You want to play it both ways. On the one hand you’re reluctant to define “rich” because of parsing. On the other hand, you continue writing sentences using the word “rich” while keeping readers in the dark as to its clarification. How the hell are we supposed to even interpret or understand what you’re writing in your posts?!?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=18)