# The role of the working poor in our society **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904 "2009-07-31T19:26:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/101 "2009-08-01T17:17:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well, really what will happen is anyone with means or anyone with the potential to bring businesses to areas where “those people” live which would have provided them with jobs and a source of income will shy away from those areas. They will simply decided that those towns are too dangerous and violent and not worth the risk of doing business there. So what you will end up with is “those people” just bashing each other’s heads in. Until they jack a car and then go joyriding in your neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/102 "2009-08-01T17:21:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > …Your mistake is that the Free Market is amoral… Precisely. Are you? If the answer is no, why would you surrender your moral judgement and choices to something you recognize as amoral? Secondly, the Free Market does not exist, never has existed, most likely never will. It is a convenient abstraction presumed to have magical power to create efficiencies and allocate resources. I don’t despise the Free Market, I despise the uses to which this mythical beast is put to. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/103 "2009-08-01T17:43:39Z")
Since, as it has been pointed out, dickering with minimum wage is useless and SS is in fact counterproductive, I suggest that we return to a system of[poorhouses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse). Wait. Wait. Give me a second here. Think about it. 1. Gets these louts off the street. 2. Since these institutions are run by states and counties, pares down Big Govt 3. Supplies inexpensive labor to industry. Employment compensation is no longer necessary We did just fine with this system until that bastard FDR came along. Great Britain was another place that for a long time had real success with[a similar idea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse). Now that I think about it, why not privatize. Blackwater seems a good choice to build and run this. No need to put it out to competitive bidding. . ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/104 "2009-08-01T18:13:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Precisely. Are you? If the answer is no, why would you surrender your moral judgement and choices to something you recognize as amoral? I’m not amoral or completely lacking compassion. However I don’t it’s particularly moral to take what one person has because someone else “needs” it more. Or to put in another way, if I study hard, spend years learning marketable skills and spend years working hard to be successful in my career, why should I be forced to pay for someone else who maybe dropped out of high school and can’t get his shit together? Maybe I would be better off instead of working so hard I should just sit back and let the government take care of me for a change? People have provided examples like Alabama or Detroit where the entire economy is depressed. Well what good does it do to just throw good money after bad in places like that? By sustaining those unsustainable economies, you take away incentives for people to do things like move to where there are actually jobs. I mean unless you can figure out a way to invest in those communities so they become self sustaining. > [@elucidator](#): > > Secondly, the Free Market does not exist, never has existed, most likely never will. It is a convenient abstraction presumed to have magical power to create efficiencies and allocate resources. If someone offers you a job that pays more money than you are currently making, can you accept it? Can you just arbitrarily sell your house for twice what the local real estate market will bear? The point is not that we live in an absolute free market society, but that all financial transactions are subject to market forces. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Until they jack a car and then go joyriding in your neighborhood. Sorry, but I don’t think appeals based on threat of violence are any more valid a reason to assist the poor than appeals based on “need” or “fairness”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/105 "2009-08-01T20:39:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is wrong. Liberals regard the poor as worthless scum. Liberals think that the poor wouldn’t amout to anything if it weren’t for the government holding their hand every step of the way. Conservative believe that all people should be treated equally and given the opportunity to succeed. Liberals end up creating a hand-out mentality in poor people, thus insuring that they will always remain poor. Conservatives treat all people like human beings, expecting the best from them, instead of treating the poor like worthless scum that are good for nothing and therefore mut be taken care of by the government. Garbage, Conservatives are sadists and bigots who would re-institute chattel slavery if they could get away with it. Conservatives spend their days relentlessly trying to find ways to hurt and exploit people. They see the poor as something they can stomp on. And children, and women, and the sick, and anyone with a smaller military. They don’t want to give people the “opportunity to succeed”; they want to use them, to work them until they are crippled or dead in return for barely enough money to avoid starvation ( if that ), and then to discard their victims like garbage. Because that’s exactly what they have always done whenever and wherever they could. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/106 "2009-08-01T20:48:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage, Conservatives are sadists and bigots who would re-institute chattel slavery if they could get away with it. Conservatives spend their days relentlessly trying to find ways to hurt and exploit people. They see the poor as something they can stomp on. And children, and women, and the sick, and anyone with a smaller military. > > They don’t want to give people the “opportunity to succeed”; they want to use them, to work them until they are crippled or dead in return for barely enough money to avoid starvation ( if that ), and then to discard their victims like garbage. Because that’s exactly what they have always done whenever and wherever they could. Priceless. Don’t you EVER change, babe. That was the best laugh I’ve had in about a month. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/107 "2009-08-01T21:10:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Priceless. Don’t you EVER change, babe. That was the best laugh I’ve had in about a month. A typical attempt to avoid an actual argument. My opinion of them fits the behavior of conservatives now and in the past, as I’m sure you are aware of; since you can’t argue against me without I and others pointing out just how often conservatives have proved their nastiness you resort to pointing and going “HA HA” like it was an argument. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/108 "2009-08-01T21:30:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A typical attempt to avoid an actual argument. My opinion of them fits the behavior of conservatives now and in the past, as I’m sure you are aware of; since you can’t argue against me without I and others pointing out just how often conservatives have proved their nastiness you resort to pointing and going “HA HA” like it was an argument. All disgustingly true but I must admit I LOL. Keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/109 "2009-08-01T21:35:02Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Now that I think about it, why not privatize. Blackwater seems a good choice to build and run this. No need to put it out to competitive bidding. > . It seems like it would be much more productive to exploit the rich than exploit the poor. Everyone knows the poor are lazy, shiftless lagabouts who won’t give an honest day’s work even under the lash. On the other hand, if we raise the tax rate to 80% for anyone making over $300,000, we will see some real productivity increases. The one thing I know about rich people is they are terrified of being poor, and will work like beavers to avoid it. The more we take, the harder they work. If they were working 60 hours a week, they will work 80 hours to make up the difference. It’s not as if their kids miss them anymore anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/110 "2009-08-01T22:07:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Garbage, Conservatives are sadists and bigots who would re-institute chattel slavery if they could get away with it. Conservatives spend their days relentlessly trying to find ways to hurt and exploit people. They see the poor as something they can stomp on. And children, and women, and the sick, and anyone with a smaller military. You are wrong. Liberals are masochists who intentionally keep poor people poor so the poor people will continue to vote liberals into office. Liberals spend their days thinking of new ways to give money to poor people, so the implicit threat of that money being taken away will insure the liberals political power for years to come. That is exploitation in its grossest form. It’s like not letting slaves learn to read–liberals don’t want poor people to learn how not to be poor. > [@](#): > > They don’t want to give people the “opportunity to succeed”; they want to use them, to work them until they are crippled or dead in return for barely enough money to avoid starvation ( if that ), and then to discard their victims like garbage. Because that’s exactly what they have always done whenever and wherever they could. Liberals don’t give money to poor people out of some generosity or some moral sense, it is only to advance their own agendas. Liberals see poor people as a means to an end instead of an end unto themselves. Poor people are not people to a liberal. Conservatives think that everyone should be treated like a human being. Liberals have always done all of this whenever and wherever they could for as long as they could. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/111 "2009-08-01T22:28:44Z")
Looks like everyone’s up from their afternoon nap. > [@](#): > > It seems like it would be much more productive to exploit the rich than exploit the poor. Yep. How about raising the capital gains tax to the level the rest of the civilized world deems fair. Reinstating the so-called “death tax” to 100% of anything over ?M. Can't say I'm a Trump fan but I liked his idea of a one-time 15% claw-back of net worth over ?m. Of course, this really isn’t exploitation, it’s restitution. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/112 "2009-08-01T23:14:48Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Of course, this really isn’t exploitation, it’s restitution. Restitution for what exactly? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/113 "2009-08-01T23:17:30Z")
A lot of them give money to tax lawyers. They’re lucky we wait till they’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/114 "2009-08-01T23:22:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are wrong. Liberals are masochists who intentionally keep poor people poor so the poor people will continue to vote liberals into office. Liberals spend their days thinking of new ways to give money to poor people, so the implicit threat of that money being taken away will insure the liberals political power for years to come. While I probably disagree with **Der Trihs** as much as you do, I couldn’t help but notice this. Liberals intentionally keep poor people poor. Liberals spend their days thinking of new ways to give them money. I don’t think you can necessarily use both of those arguments at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/115 "2009-08-01T23:23:39Z")
Not from around here, are you, boy? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/116 "2009-08-01T23:40:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Conservatives are sadists and bigots who would re-institute chattel slavery if they could get away with it. Conservatives spend their days relentlessly trying to find ways to hurt and exploit people. They see the poor as something they can stomp on. My mother was poor. She didn’t feel “stomped” on. I was also poor. I didn’t feel “stomped” on either during that time. If one is poor, it is certainly within his right to feel stomped on if he absolutely insists on feeling that way. However, I don’t think it’s the most productive mode of thought. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/117 "2009-08-01T23:48:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Restitution for what exactly? Generations of theft, “legal” or otherwise. Newcomers for gaming the system. If those don’t fly, just because. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/118 "2009-08-01T23:52:53Z")
I’d say “the temerity to improve their lot” would be a good charge. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/119 "2009-08-02T00:37:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is pretty self-evidently not the case. There are currently people working at jobs that do not offer health insurance. And our society functions. Wow. This has got to be one of the coldest statements I’ve seen from you in a while, **Shodan**. Society may “function”, while people die? > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > pfft. let them eat stale bread and water. sugar is a luxury. Not if we let them eat cake.\* \*[sub]Sorry, I just couldn’t resist[/sub] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904/120 "2009-08-02T01:57:38Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > While I probably disagree with **Der Trihs** as much as you do, I couldn’t help but notice this. Liberals intentionally keep poor people poor. Liberals spend their days thinking of new ways to give them money. > > I don’t think you can necessarily use both of those arguments at the same time. So if you were poor and I gave you $1 you would no longer be poor? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-role-of-the-working-poor-in-our-society/504904.md?page=7)