# The Roman Empire and Diabetes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 24, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172 "2009-04-24T01:44:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![curiositykilledthecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@curiositykilledthecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curiositykilledthecat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/1 "2009-04-24T01:44:56Z")
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Romans suffered from a diabetes epidemic due to their excesses and that was part of the reason (albeit a small one!), of their downfall. Any truth to this? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/2 "2009-04-24T02:02:59Z")
Truth? I doubt it. Type I diabetics would have inevitably died quite young, and within months to a year or two of the disease manifesting. The numbers of these would have been very small compared to the overall population. Type II diabetes is generally of more gradual onset, later in adult life, and the complications take decades to develop. I don’t see how that would have significantly caused the empire to wobble. Nor am I aware of any actual evidence that the incidence of Type II diabetes was very high during the Roman Empire’s time. Granted, the disease was known, by the fact that diabetics produced sweet urine, which attracted ants. Even so, googling “Roman Empire” and “diabetes epidemic” doesn’t return any hits discussing diabetes prevalence in the Roman Empire. Perhaps you heard about the surmised epidemic of lead poisoning experienced in the Roman empire, due to lead pipes, and use of lead as a wine additive. ---
**Author:** ![curiositykilledthecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@curiositykilledthecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curiositykilledthecat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/3 "2009-04-24T02:21:57Z")
Thanks for the reply! I think you’re right; I believe I am thinking of the lead poisoning that the Romans experienced. If I remember correctly, lead poisoning caused both insanity and sterility, which would be a problem, though how much it contributed to their demise I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/4 "2009-04-24T03:25:40Z")
The theory that lead poisoning caused the decline of the Roman Empire has been around for a long time but IIRC it became very big in the 1980s, apparently because it served as some of moral analogy for anti-communism. Check out [this article](http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html) for references. For most of its history the notion served a greater purpose, that of explaining how an empire as glorious and magnificent as the Romans could have succumbed to, gasp, barbarians. Who weren’t even Christian. Anyway, I doubt that any modern scholar would put any credence into that nonsense. The decline of Rome is completely explainable by standard means. Rome was chronically broke from spending too much money on troops and pointless wars, from the failed leadership of generations of insane emperors and brainless generals, and the impossible expansion of its empire beyond any conceivable control. You can see how any competing explanation would have preferable in the days of Reagan. And the barbarians, we know today, were as good Christians as the Romans. They in fact were the Romans, having immigrated and interbred for hundreds of years. By the so-called fall, the emperors were literally barbarians, Romanized ones who had won earlier battles for control. They were just fighting other barbarians. Nobody except the English fetishists of Rome starting with Gibbon onward really cared. The empire moved east to Constantinople and spent a thousand glorious years of education, wealth, and beauty. For some reason this didn’t count. They were Eastern Orthodox Catholics, not the Roman kind. The winners write history, but sometimes the winners are self-proclaimed. We’re finally beginning to get it straight as a culture that the Romans were not the pinnacle of civilization and that imperialistic empires may not be such a great role model to emulate. (You may hear whispers every once in a while that they were much more the bad guys than good ones.) Rome was a fascinating ancient civilization, but I think they all were. Trying to raise some to heroic stature while deriding others is a fool’s game. Trying to make today’s world follow the path of an ancient empire is criminal. Better to study the past to learn how not to make the same mistakes they did. But never copy anything. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/5 "2009-04-24T06:47:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > to make today’s world follow the path of an ancient empire is criminal. Better to study the past to learn how not to make the same mistakes they did. But never copy anything. If you can learn from other people’s mistakes, can’t you also learn from the things they did right? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/6 "2009-04-24T07:22:24Z")
> [@curiositykilledthecat](#): > > I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Romans suffered from a diabetes epidemic due to their excesses What ‘excesses’ do you think cause diabetes? I understand it is a genetically-transmitted, inherited disease. If it’s in your genes, you’ll get it, whether you live excessively or monastically. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/7 "2009-04-24T07:40:35Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > What ‘excesses’ do you think cause diabetes? > > I understand it is a genetically-transmitted, inherited disease. If it’s in your genes, you’ll get it, whether you live excessively or monastically. Being overweight, having a high-fat diet, sedentary lifestyle, and high alcohol intake have all been identified as causes of type 2 diabetes. ([cite]([http://www.emedicinehealth.com/diabetes/page2\_em.htm#Diabetes](http://www.emedicinehealth.com/diabetes/page2_em.htm#Diabetes) Causes), [cite](http://www.dlife.com/dLife/do/ShowContent/type2_information/causes_and_risk_factors/causes_and_risk_factors.html), and [cite](http://diabetes.webmd.com/guide/diabetes-causes?page=2)) I am not sure whether ancient Romans as a population were particularly overweight though, I have always been led to believe they were not. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/8 "2009-04-24T08:16:54Z")
Define “Romans”. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/9 "2009-04-24T12:19:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Define “Romans”. You know: Friends. Countrymen. I’m not sure that there was enough sugar in the diet of the Romans to give them diabetes. They had honey and that was about it. Sugar cane didn’t arrive from the Indus valley until something like 600-800 AD. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/10 "2009-04-24T12:23:06Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I understand it is a genetically-transmitted, inherited disease. If it’s in your genes, you’ll get it, whether you live excessively or monastically. Sorry, that’s incorrect, for type II DM. Many people may have a genetic predisposition towards it, but a sedentary lifestyle with obesity & a high carb diet will bring it out in _some_ people who never would otherwise have manifested it. It’s not true for type I either, but that’s more complicated… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/11 "2009-04-24T12:28:21Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > You know: Friends. Countrymen. So just the inhabitants of the city of Rome? My point is, by the 4th Century it was pretty hard to nail down what “Roman” meant. Did it refer to the entire population of the Roman Empire? Just the western half? Only the Latin-speakers? Only Roman citizens? Only freeman? Only Italians? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/12 "2009-04-24T12:36:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So just the inhabitants of the city of Rome? > > My point is, by the 4th Century it was pretty hard to nail down what “Roman” meant. Did it refer to the entire population of the Roman Empire? Just the western half? Only the Latin-speakers? Only Roman citizens? Only freeman? Only Italians? I think that as time went by, even the Romans couldn’t figure this out. And it was a problem since many legal issues revolved around one’s status as a Roman or non-Roman. I speculate that if one was officially given citizenship, you had an airtight claim to being Roman whatever your origin. Same for a native-born Italian. But as one moved further away ethinically and geographically from The City, it became murkier and murkier. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/13 "2009-04-24T16:45:14Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I’m not sure that there was enough sugar in the diet of the Romans to give them diabetes. They had honey and that was about it. Sugar cane didn’t arrive from the Indus valley until something like 600-800 AD. Sugar doesn’t give you diabetes. As **Qadgop** points out, obesity is one factor that can lead to diabetes, but eating too much sugar in and of itself will not cause anyone to get diabetes. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/14 "2009-04-24T17:05:06Z")
Also, it’s not as if the majority of Romans were enjoying the same ‘excesses’ as in stories told about _certain_ emperors. Certainly not the Army. Anyway, I’m more inclined to agree with the idea that there wasn’t so much a fall with a specific cause, as there was a gradual transformation into the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/15 "2009-04-24T18:03:17Z")
Im also skeptical of a single not-well known cause. This stinks of lazy thinking and conspiracy theories. What was the fall of say, the British Empire? Too much beef curry? Not enough fluoride? Imagine if you made that argument to a modern scholar. You should feel twice a silly saying something like that about the Roman empire. Not to mention Rome certainly was not some egalitarian paradise. The poor and merchant classes didnt eat like Emperors or Senators. If youre interested in the subject you can find out the real causes by reading the [wikipedia entry.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#Decline_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire_.28395.E2.80.93476.29) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/16 "2009-04-24T20:30:01Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Being overweight, having a high-fat diet, sedentary lifestyle, and high alcohol intake have all been identified as causes of type 2 diabetes…I am not sure whether ancient Romans as a population were particularly overweight though, I have always been led to believe they were not. The overwhelming majority of them weren’t (malnourishment being a far greater problem). Only the wealth elite (a tiny segment of the population) even have had the opportunity to become obese. And before anyone mentions vomitoria; they were exit passages in theatres and stadia, not purging rooms for Roman dinners. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/17 "2009-04-24T20:54:40Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > . . . And before anyone mentions vomitoria; they were exit passages in theatres and stadia, not purging rooms for Roman dinners. You caught me just in time. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/18 "2009-04-24T21:55:15Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I’m not sure that there was enough sugar in the diet of the Romans to give them diabetes. They had honey and that was about it. Sugar cane didn’t arrive from the Indus valley until something like 600-800 AD. SUGAR DOES NOT CAUSE DIABETES!!! Sorry for shouting, but that meme needs to die. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/19 "2009-04-24T22:05:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > SUGAR DOES NOT CAUSE DIABETES!!! > > Sorry for shouting, but that meme needs to die. Good luck. I’ve been trying to kill it for years, but it is like a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172/20 "2009-04-24T22:29:43Z")
And worse yet is when my husband is suffering from a hypoglycemic episode and some “helpful” idiot is prying the the nugget of hard candy out of his hand… Oh, don’t get me started - ! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roman-empire-and-diabetes/494172.md?page=2)