# The Romeikes - German Christian homeschooling family **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968 "2014-03-05T22:37:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/61 "2014-03-11T00:12:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You didn’t ask me, but I think an average person with a decent education can teach one other person, or perhaps two, as well as a professional, especially if they know the children very well, which gives them an advantage that professionals don’t have. If that’s what’s meant, then sure, I agree. And of course it makes sense. If I’m delivering instruction to a roomful of kids (18 in my case, I’ve got a lovely small class), I’m delivering it to the middle, even though I’ve got kids at either end of the spectrum. Those kids get as much individual attention as I can spare, but 1/18 of my total individual attention ain’t much, and basically I have to teach them something other than the main lesson. If I were, with no training, teaching two kids, I could give each half of my total attention, and design a lesson for each that was exactly within their zone of proximal development, the idea “place” for teaching. I would give them tons of individual attention. If I couldn’t do better under those circumstances than someone with training, there’d have to be something wrong with me. So I have no problem per se with homeschooling. I know folks who do it, and if you can do it, awesome. But it’s clearly not a practical solution for our society. And I certainly understand why a society like Germany might bundle everyone up in public education. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/62 "2014-03-11T00:34:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Or do you propose that a typical housewife could, absent those constraints, deliver a better education to her own children than a typical teacher who labors under those constraints? That’s what I’m saying. A typical home-schooled student will do better than a typical public-school student. Some people fret about home-schoolers not having equivalent teacher training, but where the evidence that teacher training is important? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/63 "2014-03-11T00:35:39Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That’s what I’m saying. A typical home-schooled student will do better than a typical public-school student. Some people fret about home-schoolers not having equivalent teacher training, but where the evidence that teacher training is important? Are you seriously asking whether teacher training is important for dealing with large classes of widely varying abilities operating under IDEA and other laws? Are you seriously going to make the rather remarkable claim that a teacher without training will perform as well as a teacher with training, all other factors being equal? What kind of evidence do you want, and how hard have you looked? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/64 "2014-03-11T01:55:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you seriously asking [.] I think it’s pretty clear he is not. “[D]ealing with large classes of widely varying abilities operating under IDEA and other laws” is out of the picture at home, leaving room for actual learning. Lots of the training we require is irrelevant for teaching the average child. And for the training that is supposed to be relevant, there is little evidence that it increases student achievement. That doesn’t stop us from requiring master’s degrees, in-service training, certification, etc. For public school teachers at least. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/65 "2014-03-11T08:33:25Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That’s what I’m saying. A typical home-schooled student will do better than a typical public-school student. Some people fret about home-schoolers not having equivalent teacher training, but where the evidence that teacher training is important? Higher levels can be very difficult to teach, though, especially the sciences because you’re unlikely to have the equipment, let alone the knowledge. In the UK I think it’s fairly common for homeschooling to stop at 16 at the latest. Or the kids just fail science. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/66 "2014-03-11T16:50:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you seriously asking whether teacher training is important for dealing with large classes of widely varying abilities operating under IDEA and other laws? Are you seriously going to make the rather remarkable claim that a teacher without training will perform as well as a teacher with training, all other factors being equal? Well, the total amount of “teacher training” that’s inflicted on teachers has soared upwards in the past few decades. We now require public school teachers to take far more education classes than they did 50 years ago. Even after they get jobs, teachers are forced to take any number of workshops, conferences, seminars, etc… Certainly this is good, financially, from the perspective of the universities that offer the classes in education, and also from the perspective of those companies that provide materials for all these workshops. Is it good for the students? Is there empirical evidence that teachers who have done a bunch of workshops teach better than those who haven’t? I’m certainly not aware of any. You also “IDEA and other laws”. Well, is the end goal of teacher training to improve results for students, or merely to let teachers handle government bureaucracy? If extensive training is necessary just to deal with bureaucracy, that would seem to be an argument for repealing some of the laws and rolling back the bureaucracy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968/67 "2014-03-11T16:59:45Z")
I’ll preface your response by reminding you that I asked you what sort of evidence you’d want that teacher training improves student outcomes, and how hard you’ve looked: > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, the total amount of “teacher training” that’s inflicted on teachers has soared upwards in the past few decades. We now require public school teachers to take far more education classes than they did 50 years ago. Even after they get jobs, teachers are forced to take any number of workshops, conferences, seminars, etc… Certainly this is good, financially, from the perspective of the universities that offer the classes in education, and also from the perspective of those companies that provide materials for all these workshops. Is it good for the students? Is there empirical evidence that teachers who have done a bunch of workshops teach better than those who haven’t? I’m certainly not aware of any. I repeat: what sort of evidence do you want? You might be asking for evidence that (for example) teachers who attend a workshop on differentiating science instruction for ELL is able to achieve better science outcomes for ELL students than a control cohort achieves. If that’s what you’re asking for such studies abound–not for every single workshop, but for plenty of them. If you’re looking for some sort of very vague evidence that students of teachers who go to workshops learn better, I’ll ask you to design such a study, being careful to control for other variables. I won’t, however, hold my breath. > [@](#): > > You also “IDEA and other laws”. Well, is the end goal of teacher training to improve results for students, or merely to let teachers handle government bureaucracy? If extensive training is necessary just to deal with bureaucracy, that would seem to be an argument for repealing some of the laws and rolling back the bureaucracy. The end result of IDEA is to improve results for students with disabilities. Perhaps you think that pre-IDEA, students with disabilities were better served by public schools than they are today, and if that’s what you think, I’d like to know why. If that’s not what you think, then why on earth would you imply that IDEA is just “government bureaucracy”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-romeikes-german-christian-homeschooling-family/682968.md?page=3)