# The Root Cause of Terrorism is.......Welfare **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861 "2002-05-02T14:34:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/1 "2002-05-02T14:34:29Z")
The oft-stated theory that poverty causes terrorism isn’t just wrong – it’s nearly backwards. Providing welfare to the non-working poor doesn’t _prevent_ terrorism; it _causes_ terrorism. Do you agree? Blogger Mickey Kaus advanced the theory [here](http://www.kausfiles.com/archive/index.12.17.01.html). > [@](#): > > …The point isn’t simply that many terrorists take advantage of Western welfare states, the same way they take advantage of Western freedoms and Western technology. The point is that extreme anti-social terrorist ideologies (radical Islam, in particular) seem to breed in “oppositional” cultures supported by various government welfare benefits. > > ``` > This is particularly evident in France, where—as this Los Angeles Times piece describes—unemployed and alienated North African Arab immigrants in subsidized public housing projects turn to crime and violence in a vicious cycle familiar to students of the African-American "underclass." > > ``` > > \ > > In fact, there’s a good argument that “welfare benefits + ethnic antagonism” is the universal recipe for an underclass with an angry, oppositional culture. The social logic is simple: Ethnic differences make it easy for those outside of, for example, French Arab neighborhoods to discriminate against those inside, and easy for those inside to resent the mainstream culture around them. Meanwhile, relatively generous welfare benefits enable those in the ethnic ghetto to stay there, stay unemployed, and seethe. Without government subsidies, they would have to overcome the prejudice against them and integrate into the mainstream working culture. Work, in this sense, is anti-terrorist medicine. (And if you work all day, there’s less time to dream up ways and reasons to kill infidels.) Mark Steyne supported the theory [here](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/676655/posts) > [@](#): > > In the Los Angeles Times, Sebastian Rotella was perplexed: ‘As crime has dropped in the United States in recent years, it has worsened in much of Europe, despite generous welfare states designed to prevent US-style inequality and social conflict.’ > > ‘Despite’? Try ‘because of’. In December in this space, I lent my support to Mickey Kaus, the thinking conservative’s thinking liberal, who advanced the theory that welfare causes terrorism. Among the examples I cited was Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called ‘20th hijacker’, who became an Islamofascist nutter while living on welfare in London. What else is there to do all day? Go down the pub? Lie on the floor listening to Capital FM? If you’re putting in a ten-hour grease-monkey shift at Fat Dave’s Auto Body, you’re too wiped out to wipe America out. But in the fetid public housing of London, Paris, Frankfurt and Rotterdam the government will pay you to sit around the flat all day plotting world domination. > > It’s a scheme worthy of a Bond villain: flood high-unemployment Europe with unassimilated low-skilled young men, whom the state is obliged to put on welfare just to keep them from rioting, and hey presto, your enemies will be funding their own downfall — ON HER MAJESTY’S SOCIAL SERVICE. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/2 "2002-05-02T15:26:54Z")
An interesting theory, but without any _facts_ - by which I mean real, hard facts, not anecdotes- it’s just pissing in the wind, isn’t it? Who cares what Mark Steyn’s opinion is? Get facts from others, form opinions yourself. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/3 "2002-05-02T15:30:22Z")
Do they have welfare in Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/4 "2002-05-02T15:32:20Z")
hmm. Well, when refugees, for instance, come to the U.K. for asylum, there are not **permitted** to work until the case is fully assessed _etc_, so they receive rather a low level of benefit. No doubt if they did work, a certain sort of person would than complain that they were “stealing all our jobs”. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/5 "2002-05-02T15:37:25Z")
Ummm… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/6 "2002-05-02T15:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Do they have welfare in Afghanistan? No. But, then, the terrorists have not been Afghanis. al-Qaeda recruited a lot of Saudis and Egyptians and others to _fight_ in Afghanistan. On the other hand, the whole notion of the quoted columnists is silly. Most of the terrorists involved in al-Qaeda have been upper middle class, even wealthy, recruits, but Israel is not handing out welfare checks to the Palestinians, so it appears that welfare only encourages terrorism against the U.S., not all terrorism. The columnists quoted have taken one aspect of the _sources_ of rebellion and terrorism (the poverty of the lands in which terrorism is involved) and pointed to a couple of disparate events to claim that welfare is creating terrorism (and crime). There may or may not be some connections between some variations of welfare and some types or occurences of crime. In the articles quoted, however, we merely see facile right-wing misapplied logic (based on no serious information) that we are invited to wrangle over. Based on the experience in the U.S. (and following the “logic” proposed thus far), I would have to conclude that the primary sources of terrorism, here, are based on an association with failures in the U.S. military and college drop-outs (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Bill Gates) so we should simply lock up anyone who enters the military or college, then fails or drops out. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/7 "2002-05-02T16:40:31Z")
Interesting points. Two quibbles: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* Israel is not handing out welfare checks to the Palestinians, so it appears that welfare only encourages terrorism against the U.S., not all terrorism. \*\*The UN relief agency _does_ provide welfare to the Palestinians in refugee camps. (BTW the US contributes 30% of it.) Relatively few of them have jobs. > [@](#): > > \*\*… I would have to conclude that the primary sources of terrorism, here, are based on an association with failures in the U.S. military and college drop-outs (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Bill Gates) so we should simply lock up anyone who enters the military or college, then fails or drops out. \*\* You seem to be implying that Kaczynski was a college dropout. Actually he got a PhD in mathematics and was on the UC Berkeley faculty in 1968. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/8 "2002-05-02T16:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > The UN relief agency does provide welfare to the Palestinians in refugee camps. (BTW the US contributes 30% of it.) Relatively few of them have jobs. Monetary welfare or food stamps, clothing and basic necessities? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/9 "2002-05-02T17:07:22Z")
The Unabomber had a PhD in math? I never knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/10 "2002-05-02T17:30:27Z")
**erislover** - yep - > [@](#): > > Kaczynski, a one-time math professor at the University of California, Berkeley, waged an 17-year “anti-technology” bombing campaign that killed three people and injured 29. > > The shaggy-haired hermit entered Harvard University at age 16. He succeeded at mathematics but failed to socialize with his classmates or function within society. > > He quit a tenure-track position at Berkeley in 1969 to build a cabin near Lincoln, Montana, and lived there without running water or electricity for more than 20 years. from: [http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/22/unabomb.plea/](http://www.cnn.com/US/9801/22/unabomb.plea/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/11 "2002-05-02T18:05:55Z")
Sorry. I had confused an ancient memory of Kaczynski leaving a college under his own power but under a cloud with him dropping out of college before graduation. (I still have Gates, however.) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/12 "2002-05-02T18:27:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\* > > Monetary welfare or food stamps, clothing and basic necessities? \*\* I used google. There are lots of sites with relevant information at [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=United+Nations+Relief+and+Works+Agency+(UNRWA)+palestinians&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=United+Nations+Relief+and+Works+Agency+%28UNRWA%29+palestinians&btnG=Google+Search) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/13 "2002-05-02T18:51:48Z")
So, **december** , you are suggesting that if Israel had begun working to establish a genuine Palestinian state in August of 1967, working to get a government established and bringing in industry for the inhabitants, instead of simply holding them in a state of suspended animation for 35 years with no way to create jobs to employ themselves, there might be less chance of terrorism in the region, today. That seems to have been a good idea. Too bad no one actually tried it. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/14 "2002-05-02T19:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*So, **december** , you are suggesting that if Israel had begun working to establish a genuine Palestinian state in August of 1967, working to get a government established and bringing in industry for the inhabitants, instead of simply holding them in a state of suspended animation for 35 years with no way to create jobs to employ themselves, there might be less chance of terrorism in the region, today. > > That seems to have been a good idea. Too bad no one actually tried it. \*\* Almost right. I am suggesting that if the **United Nations Relief and Works Agency** had done those things, there would be less terrorism today. And the Palestinain people would be a helova lot better off. The UN chose to take responsibility for the refugees after the 1948 war. They’ve been in charge ever since. UNRWA disburses the funds to operate the camps, supports the schools, etc. Israel did provide some jobs for Palestinian refugees, and they deserve credit for having done so. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/15 "2002-05-02T19:56:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Almost right. I am suggesting that if the **United Nations Relief and Works Agency** had done those things, there would be less terrorism today. And the Palestinain people would be a helova lot better off. > > The UN chose to take responsibility for the refugees after the 1948 war. They’ve been in charge ever since. UNRWA disburses the funds to operate the camps, supports the schools, etc. > > Israel did provide some jobs for Palestinian refugees, and they deserve credit for having done so. \*\* **december** thinks that the UN should have made a Palestinian state. The UN should have established a Palestinian State! The UN could have stopped terrorism by establishing a Palestinian State! I had to say it three times before I could believe it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/16 "2002-05-02T20:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > The UN chose to take responsibility for the refugees after the 1948 war. They’ve been in charge ever since. However, Israel has been the only force on the ground in the Occupied Territories for 35 years (as opposed to the 11 years that the UN shared it with Jordan–during which there were two wars). I am well aware that both the displaced Palestinians and the surrounding Arab nations have interfered with the possibility of nation-building. However, to pretend that Israel had no part in preventing that nation-building (on land that they were flooding with settlers) is to simply declare that one does not live on this planet or have any knowledge of its history. The alternatives for the non-Israeli peoples in the Occupied Territories have been: 1. welfare 2. a nation with industry 3. elimination. Given that #3 is outside the limited morality even of Sharon, and that Israel has forcibly interfered with #2, _your_ argument indicates that Israel (by reducing the options to #1) is responsible for the current terrorism. I am disinclined to argue that Israel is the sole cause of the problems in that region, but then, I am not arguing that welfare is the source of terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/17 "2002-05-02T20:19:17Z")
This typo > [@](#): > > the 11 years that the UN shared it with Jordan should have read: the **19** years that the UN shared it with Jordan ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/18 "2002-05-02T21:30:51Z")
well, the board ate my prior response, which would have been much more pithy and timely. sigh. anyhow. The ‘evidence’ for the theory that welfare begets terrorism, from the link in the OP seems to be that two of the men suspected of 9/11 actions, had at some point or another collected welfare support. (of course we won’t worry about other terrorists who did not collect state support - isn’t Ossama his own little self a very wealthy man? - nor will we concern ourselves with the hosts of people who have collected some form of state support and not blown buildings up, and absolutely we won’t even begin to touch any concept about ‘corporate welfare’ ) Now, putting on my **december** /English/ English **december** goggles, I also bring to the forefront, his theories from another recent thread, in which some one being \*\*suspected \*\* of being a terrorist should remain in custody, even if there’s no evidence that they are a terrorist, because of course, the mere possability of them being a terrorist, combined with the horror of what terrorists can do = justification for changing rules of law. Add to this, the welfare causes terrorist concept, and we have (drum roll please) Lock up all welfare recipients, since some of them **might** become terrorists, and we know what that means. Now, for my real point. I move that \*\*december \*\* be forbidden from reading op/ed pieces. all in favor, say “ayeCarumba” ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/19 "2002-05-02T22:23:34Z")
Nah! Keep him around. Every once in a while my blood pressure need the elevation. We can make it into a slogan: “Low blood pressure? No throbbing veins in your forehead? Read December’s latest post!” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861/20 "2002-05-02T23:28:58Z")
Haven’t had enough head-slapping stupidity in the day? Read **december’s** latest post! aye Carumba! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-of-terrorism-is-welfare/106861.md?page=2)