# The Root Cause(s) of Homelessness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227 "2018-03-08T07:24:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/41 "2018-03-12T15:57:35Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you propose to take land from private owners by eminent domain, or how exactly are we freeing up this land? We don’t have to take the land, we just have to make it legal to build more residencies by taking away the impediments to building such as zoning laws and other local ordinances which drive up the cost of building. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/42 "2018-03-12T15:58:59Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > and a living wage would make things worse? really? Yes, a living wage would increase unemployment among the low skilled who are most at risk of homelessness. Depending on how it was implemented a universal health care system might do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/43 "2018-03-12T16:09:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > We don’t have to take the land, we just have to make it legal to build more residencies by taking away the impediments to building such as zoning laws and other local ordinances which drive up the cost of building. At which time the land will be snatched up by unscrupulous developers looking to spend as little as possible to sell for as much as possible. Where in your “solution” is a stipulation that the housing be sold to the less well off? BTW the idea of changing zoning laws and make some allowances to developers that promise to set aside some of the new houses and/or apartments for those less well off doesn’t usually work out: Either the developing stops after the condos are built, or the definition of what is “affordable housing” gets changed to something un-affordable. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/44 "2018-03-12T18:28:09Z")
Human beings plop into the world with everything they need to survive already belonging to someone else. If a person’s earning, negotiating, begging, charming or thieving skills aren’t up to snuff, what do people expect to happen to them? ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/45 "2018-03-13T02:42:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, a living wage would increase unemployment among the low skilled who are most at risk of homelessness. ::checks forum:: cite? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/46 "2018-03-13T09:36:56Z")
It’s easy to see why someone would assume that living-wage legislation would cause employers to simply hire fewer people. However, I think that’s not what has actually happened in the places where it’s been done. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/47 "2018-03-13T12:30:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That doesn’t really explain long term homelessness. There are a variety of ways to cover this until you’re on your feet. Family, friends, YMCA, public housing, charity housing etc… Family, friends, charity … throw in “churches”, too, and you’ve got the magic formula wherein far-right extremists claim that health care for the poor can be taken care of, too, so not only is there no need to be homeless, there’s no need for universal health care either. Sadly, the real world is very different from right-wing fantasies. > [@Magiver](#): > > Drugs and mental issues are a more likely cause of homelessness. No, they are not. Posts #39 and #40 address the facts on this. > [@puddleglum](#): > > We don’t have to take the land, we just have to make it legal to build more residencies by taking away the impediments to building such as zoning laws and other local ordinances which drive up the cost of building. Those zoning laws and ordinances often arise from NIMBYism that prevents affordable community housing from being built in established middle-class neighborhoods. The typical attitude is,“we support affordable housing projects and think they should be built, just not here.” It’s possible for these projects to be done badly and that has happened, but it’s also possible to create vibrant healthy neighborhoods of mixed economic tiers. > [@puddleglum](#): > > Yes, a living wage would increase unemployment among the low skilled who are most at risk of homelessness. Depending on how it was implemented a universal health care system might do the same. The first sentence is a typical right-wing meme for which there is no actual credible evidence, but it must be noted that the reality is complex so that with suitable assumptions and interpretations one could cobble together a case to support that claim. But factually and realistically, the impact on employment depends on the state of the economy and the amounts and timeframes over which minimum wage increases are mandated and other complex factors, and many if not most economists see a healthy minimum wage as a likely net benefit to the overall economy. Your second sentence is even more bizarre and I have no idea how you link UHC with higher unemployment. Maybe you’re thinking of all those unproductive paper-pushers currently employed to process insurance claims who would become redundant. If so, we’d be better off having a sustainable cost-effective health care system and paying to retrain these people for useful honest jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/48 "2018-03-13T13:33:59Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > I ran into that a lot during my brief bout of homelessness. People without mental illnesses or substance abuse problems who basically felt that they were homeless because everyone else had these unreasonable demands, like they should work and pay for things when obviously the people the money goes to don’t need/deserve it. Yeah, right. George Carlin had a great bit about people asking him for money. “Who gave it to me? Nobody. I earned it. So why should I give it to you.” If they get a job, they will lose it because the employer expects them to show up on time (My ride was late), do the work (I can’t life 5 pounds with my bad back) and get alone with people (I felt threatened when she looked at me). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/49 "2018-03-13T15:07:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At which time the land will be snatched up by unscrupulous developers looking to spend as little as possible to sell for as much as possible. Where in your “solution” is a stipulation that the housing be sold to the less well off? BTW the idea of changing zoning laws and make some allowances to developers that promise to set aside some of the new houses and/or apartments for those less well off doesn’t usually work out: Either the developing stops after the condos are built, or the definition of what is “affordable housing” gets changed to something un-affordable. Affordable housing is not separate from housing. What makes housing affordable is just like everything else, Supply and demand. If you expand supply more than demand then prices will go down. It doesn’t matter if the new construction is luxury condos or shotgun shacks. Seattle has some of the strictest building and zoning regulations and a 1 bedroom apartment is 40% over the national average. Houston has the loosest zoning in the country and a 1 bedroom apartment is 12% under the national average. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/50 "2018-03-13T15:27:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The first sentence is a typical right-wing meme for which there is no actual credible evidence, but it must be noted that the reality is complex so that with suitable assumptions and interpretations one could cobble together a case to support that claim. But factually and realistically, the impact on employment depends on the state of the economy and the amounts and timeframes over which minimum wage increases are mandated and other complex factors, and many if not most economists see a healthy minimum wage as a likely net benefit to the overall economy. > > Your second sentence is even more bizarre and I have no idea how you link UHC with higher unemployment. Maybe you’re thinking of all those unproductive paper-pushers currently employed to process insurance claims who would become redundant. If so, we’d be better off having a sustainable cost-effective health care system and paying to retrain these people for useful honest jobs. There is [plenty](https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/662127.pdf)of credible evidence if you are wiling to look. For example after the minimum wage was increased by a lot in American Samoa total employment went down 11% in the next six years and 58% in the most affected sector. The city of Seattle commissioned a [study](https://evans.uw.edu/policy-impact/minimum-wage-study)to find out the effects of the minimum wage increase that found that there were 3.5 million fewer hours worked than before and the average low wage worker was worse off by 125 dollars a month. In [Denmark](https://cepr.org/sites/default/files/3564_KREINER%20-%20Do%20Lower%20Minimum%20Wages%20for%20Young%20Workers%20Raise%20their%20Employment_0.pdf)those over 18 have a higher minimum wage than those under 18, because of this employment drops one third after the 18th birthday. If you pay for UHC by putting a tax on employers like some have proposed then that would add to the cost of employing someone and increase structural employment. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/51 "2018-03-13T16:56:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There is [plenty](https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/662127.pdf)of credible evidence if you are wiling to look. I’m willing to look. What I’m not willing to do is regard specific accounts of extremely complex circumstances as definitive attributions of cause and effect. [This article](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/minimum-wage-experiment-1.4473095) highlights some of the complexities and controversies surrounding the recent whopping 21% increase in the minimum wage in Ontario. There are certainly differences of opinion on how this will affect the economy and the welfare of small business, but most economists are optimistic. So far the only thing I noticed is that the cost of my favorite chicken takeout has gone up by a dime or something. I sort of half-humorously complained to the girl about the price increase, and she quite forthrightly said it was due to the minimum wage increase. Of course these poor folk are being paid minimum wage, I just never thought about it – I actually felt bad that someone was not only being screwed by a minimum wage but had to publicly acknowledge it. I certainly have no problem paying the extra pittance for their benefit. > [@puddleglum](#): > > If you pay for UHC by putting a tax on employers like some have proposed then that would add to the cost of employing someone and increase structural employment. This is absolutely flat-out wrong. The reality is that UHC is a distinct advantage for the employer because instead of paying the outrageous costs of private health insurance, they benefit from a much less costly public plan that is heavily subsidized by the overall population – and as for taxes, corporate taxes in Canada have traditionally been significantly lower than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/52 "2018-03-13T18:09:03Z")
Often I think the problem is the society is built in a way that some people can’t fit in and fall by the wayside and in some cases become homeless, though if society developed another way they would do very well. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/53 "2018-03-14T14:13:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Often I think the problem is the society is built in a way that some people can’t fit in and fall by the wayside and in some cases become homeless, though if society developed another way they would do very well. The thing is, there will always be some people left by the wayside no matter how Utopian things get. The goal is to make this number as small as possible, but also accept that it happens and deal with them humanely. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/54 "2018-03-14T16:09:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m willing to look. What I’m not willing to do is regard specific accounts of extremely complex circumstances as definitive attributions of cause and effect. [This article](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/minimum-wage-experiment-1.4473095) highlights some of the complexities and controversies surrounding the recent whopping 21% increase in the minimum wage in Ontario. There are certainly differences of opinion on how this will affect the economy and the welfare of small business, but most economists are optimistic. > > So far the only thing I noticed is that the cost of my favorite chicken takeout has gone up by a dime or something. I sort of half-humorously complained to the girl about the price increase, and she quite forthrightly said it was due to the minimum wage increase. Of course these poor folk are being paid minimum wage, I just never thought about it – I actually felt bad that someone was not only being screwed by a minimum wage but had to publicly acknowledge it. I certainly have no problem paying the extra pittance for their benefit. Unfortunately for the optimistic economists the results are already showing that there is nothing magical about Ontario that exempts them from supply and demand. [Many](http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-hortons-heirs-minimum-wage-wynne-ontario-1.4472878)Tim Hortons around Ontario have already cut benefits in response to the law. They are [not](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-managing/minimum-wage-hike-spurs-ontario-businesses-to-cut-benefits-hours/article37512291/)the only ones. In the first month of the increase there was a [record](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-09/blame-ontario-minimum-wage-hike-for-canada-job-plunge-or-not)59,000 jobs lost in Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227/55 "2018-03-14T16:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The reality is that UHC is a distinct advantage for the employer because instead of paying the outrageous costs of private health insurance, they benefit from a much less costly public plan that is heavily subsidized by the overall population QFT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-root-cause-s-of-homelessness/810227.md?page=2)