# The roots of the Holocaust: Intentionalists vs. Functionalists. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729 "2011-07-29T13:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/21 "2011-07-29T23:20:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I believe the “functionalists” are more correct. The Nazis were remarkable for the rather chaotic nature of their plans for their empire - often different factions of Nazi embracing mutually-contraditory plans, with the result of a veritable race to the bottom, morally speaking. > > For example, different Nazis had different aims for their eastern empire - was it ethnic protectorates, creation of a slave class, or extermination and replacement by ethnic Germans? These goals are somewhat mutually exclusive (can’t exterminate people and use them as slaves at the same time, can’t enslave and enlist people in protectorates at the same time …) and the net effect, seen in places like Belarus, was to edge the Nazis into “extermination” by default. > > The Holocaust had the same, downward trajectory. Well argued. I had a book recommended to me at some point (can’t remember the title, alas) stating that the Eastern empire probably would have collapsed within a half a decade or so _even if Stalin had been decisively defeated_ – so hopelessly incompetent were the Nazis were it came to running their conquered territories. For one thing, they somehow managed to turn the Eastern anti-Communist guerillas (a natural ally, you’d think) into mortal enemies through all manner of barbaric brutality. > [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, the “functionalist” position makes Nazism more abhorrent, rather than less: it implies (and I think correctly) that there is something inherent in Nazism that makes horrors somewhat inevitable - whether perpetrated on Jews, Roma, Slavs, or some other target. > > That “something” is I think a devotion to conflict and struggle between ethnic tribes as the central aspect of their vision of society, and a lack of any corresponding restraint on action based on an appreciation of humanity [for Communists, the centrality of class struggle lead to similar results]. Another good point. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/22 "2011-07-30T08:49:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Not especially. The centralized totalitarian form of government the Nazis embraced make such mass-killings possible (indeed, probable). Whether or not there were “good” Nazis early on, they surrendered rule of law to the casual brutality of whatever faction managed to be more ruthless than its rivals and sycophantic to the hierarchy. > > It doesn’t matter if systematic extermination didn’t start until 1942, some nine years after the Nazi party took power. Those nine years represent a gradual elimination of the social contract (always a particularly delicate structure, even now) that made such exterminations impossible. If the Nazi goals were worthwhile, they would have becoming _more_ civilized over time, not less. Ah, but which was the “faction” that advocated the Holocaust? Was it Hitler and the Nazi leadership, from an early date, as claim the intentionalists, or was it their underlings, late in the process, as claim the functionalists? Two different scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/23 "2011-07-30T16:35:06Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Ah, but which was the “faction” that advocated the Holocaust? Was it Hitler and the Nazi leadership, from an early date, as claim the intentionalists, or was it their underlings, late in the process, as claim the functionalists? Two different scenarios. I figure the difference is only significant if one wishes to (even partly) absolve Hitler of responsibility and I see no reason to do so. I don’t see a reason to care if the idea of mass extermination was something Hitler came up with in 1920 or something he hadn’t considered until underlings proposed it in 1942. At best, it’s worthy of idle academic debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/24 "2011-07-30T17:46:06Z")
Overall, I tend to follow the functionalist line more. I think the early policy was something vague like “let’s get rid of the Jews” and it evolved into a specific program of camps and mass murder. I don’t see how functionalism absolves the Nazis of any guilt. What difference does it make if they decided to commit genocide as early as 1924 or as late as 1942? They clearly made the decision at some point and acted on it. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/25 "2011-07-30T19:09:40Z")
IMO it was a combination of both. I think the original Hitler/Nazi Leadership’s “master plan” early on was to get rid of the Jews, somehow. Various options were considered and/or tried, from Madagascar to sterilization to mass shootings…but the specifics of the ultimate plan of mass industrialized extermination evolved over time, after they experimented with the idea and found it was both possible and efficient. I think the Nazi leadership was the driving force behind the Holocaust, but it would never have happened without the complicity of the “lower ranks” and the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/26 "2011-07-30T21:04:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I figure the difference is only significant if one wishes to (even partly) absolve Hitler of responsibility Not true. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > and I see no reason to do so. And neither do I. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see a reason to care if the idea of mass extermination was something Hitler came up with in 1920 or something he hadn’t considered until underlings proposed it in 1942. At best, it’s worthy of idle academic debate. Yup, it’s an “idle academic debate,” all right, can’t argue with you there. And some people are interested in it and others are not. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/27 "2011-07-30T21:21:52Z")
What evidence is there for the intentionalist position? ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/28 "2011-07-30T21:31:41Z")
Functional. He wanted Germany and Europe free of jews at some point but I don’t think he already had mass murder in mind in 1932. The early laws that began stripping then of their rights and banning them from professions were intended to make life so miserable for them that they left on their own. Once the war in the east started they were adding millions more jews to Germany’s “problem”. I don’t believe the holocaust could have been carried out in peacetime. The scale of the german-soviet war gave them cover in a sense. Alot of the first mass killings were in the conquered territories and by firing squads. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/29 "2011-07-30T22:02:45Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Well argued. I had a book recommended to me at some point (can’t remember the title, alas) stating that the Eastern empire probably would have collapsed within a half a decade or so _even if Stalin had been decisively defeated_ – so hopelessly incompetent were the Nazis were it came to running their conquered territories. For one thing, they somehow managed to turn the Eastern anti-Communist guerillas (a natural ally, you’d think) into mortal enemies through all manner of barbaric brutality. > > Another good point. I’ve heard that too. It depends on whether he would have been pragmatic enough to turn the conquered territories over to competent managers instead of party ideologues. Or they may have decided not to bother trying to run them at all. Kill everyone and just open it up to German settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/30 "2011-07-31T07:27:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What evidence is there for the intentionalist position? There’s some. To begin with, I’ll point out that part of the intentionalist argument is that Hitler was, in every conceivable way, the “master of the Third Reich” – not simply the most powerful man in the realm, but the _only_ powerful man in the realm. So Bracher, for example, argued that “at no point was Hitler ever driven by pressure from below or had his power limited in any way,” and in Ritter’s words, “the will of a single madman” caused World War II. In this view, _no_ major project could have gotten underway in Nazi Germany without Hitler as the driving force behind it – and of course the Holocaust was a major project, to say the least. But you ask for _evidence_, so… Let’s see here… Himmler met Hitler on 18 December 1941, afterwards writing down two lines: First “what to do with the Jews of Russia?”, and then “exterminate them as partisans.” Presumably, the first line was Himmler’s question, and the second Hitler’s answer – either his exact words or a close paraphrase, but in any case a very clear answer. Among intentionalists, the fact that, apart from this, no further written order is known to exist isn’t considered as big deal as some people try to make it: Hitler often delivered his orders verbally, they argue, and sometimes in secret. (Indeed, in October of 1943, Himmler specifically mentioned the subject of the “extermination of the Jews” as one of those about which no one ever speaks out loud, adding that in fact “we will _never_ discuss this publicly.”) So for example, Christian Gerlach has argued that Hitler announced his decision on December 12, 1941, in a secret speech to some fifty-odd _gauleiters_: > [@](#): > > What Hitler said about the Jewish question on December 12 is reported twice, in almost identical formulations: once in the diary entry of December 13 by the Berlin Gauleiter and Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels and once in the government diary of the Reichleiter and Cracow General Governor Hans Frank of December 16. “In respect of the Jewish question, the Fuehrer has decided,” so says Goebbels, “to make a clean sweep. The world war is here, the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary result.” According to Eberhard Jäckel (a leading intentionalist), many local dignitaries were _shocked_ when they found out about this new directive, thus making it likely that the initiative came not from their own kind, but indeed directly from above, i.e. from Hitler. OK, so if December 12, 1941, is when Hitler _announced_ his decision, when did he first _make_ it, if only in his heart of hearts? Lucy Dawidowicz believes one need look no further than _Mein Kampf_, and look at Hitler’s early speeches and writings to find clear declarations of intent. She guesstimates that Hitler probably made up his mind as early as 1918-1919 – admittedly an extreme position, for which she has taken some flak over the years. I don’t know what precise _evidence_ she presents, though, if any – I haven’t read her book. Jäckel, too, believes _Mein Kampf_ was essentially a “blueprint for genocide,” though he allows (if I have understood his position correctly) that Hitler brooded on the matter all through the 1920’s, but in any case had made up his mind by the time he took power in 1933. Haven’t read his book either, though… So many books, so little time, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/31 "2011-07-31T21:21:04Z")
There was also Hitler’s speech, which he made in January 1939. Hitler was talking about the possibility of war. As he often did, he claimed that Germany wanted peace. He said that if war came about it would be because the Jews started it. Then he said if the Jews thought they could start another war in order to keep Germany down, they were going to be surprised. He said that if the Jews started another war, the result would be the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe. So there is Hitler, on record, acknowledging the possibility of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729/32 "2011-07-31T21:46:59Z")
I find the intentionalist position fairly compelling, though I’m no expert.I think it’s pretty clear that Hitler always had it in for the Jews, and surrounded himself with people who thought likewise. The details of the plan may have changed but an anti-Jewish genocide was inevitable once hitler was in power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-roots-of-the-holocaust-intentionalists-vs-functionalists/590729.md?page=1)