# The rules for beating Trump... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 28, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734 "2018-07-28T16:17:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/61 "2018-07-30T15:01:35Z")
Yes the 2016 election was an education in the process, the game, and how to game the system. The press were Trump’s puppets, and he played them for free advertising. Clinton lost an unlosable election, and she spent 2x what Trump spent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/62 "2018-07-30T16:49:50Z")
Perhaps. Do your figures include money spent on Trump’s behalf by enthusiastic patriots, or just money spent by the official campaigns? ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/63 "2018-07-30T17:36:22Z")
Trump won because he lied. He didn’t get on the stump and pronounce a laundry list of “work towards” and “need to’s” like every politician before. He flat out said he’s got a fabulous, cheaper, better, more comprehensive plan that will cover EVERYBODY. He said he had a secret plan that will IMMEADITLY defeat ISIS. He said he’d have a 300 billion dollar wall built but don’t worry, Mexico will pay for all of it. He flat out LIED, day after day, telling his minions exactly what they wanted to hear and they ate it up. There are lots of gullible people. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/64 "2018-07-30T21:05:41Z")
It’s also increasingly a fair question as to whether or not Trump is even a legitimately-elected president. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/65 "2018-07-30T21:25:00Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > My statement stands as presented: > “Applying for asylum is not a crime. It is guaranteed under U.S. and international law.” > > If there is an argument against the veracity of this statement, please, let’s see it. No, no --it’s absolutely true. But the reason I posted MY statement – which is ALSO absolutely true – is this exchange: > [@Bullitt](#): > > — if she is caught then she’ll be deported, and we, the USA, will have broken up their family. Uhh, NO. You both married, knowing your situation. You are like criminals on the run. > [@SingleMalt](#): > > Applying for asylum is not a crime. It is guaranteed under U.S. and international law. **Bullitt** said, “Like criminals on the run.” You said, “Applying for asylum is not a crime,” and a reader might well construe that response to refute the accusation of criminality to which you were responding. Perhaps your reply was merely intended to list things there were not crimes. Was that it? Being a Yankees fan. Transporting lumber across county lines. And . . um . . listening to the movie soundtrack of “Into the Woods,” instead of the far superior Broadway cast recording. All of those are also not crimes. Right? But none of those seem relevant to the discussion. Hmm… ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/66 "2018-07-30T21:59:49Z")
Bullitt, with his blanket assertions, is implying that there are no innocents here, and to that characterization, I object. > [@Bullitt](#): > > Example: Trump is a racist who separates children from their families. Oh really? You go out and commit a crime, and you too will be separated from your children. Here, a blanket statement is posited, and as far as regarding asylum seekers, his statement is true. Bullitt’s anecdote may be accurate, but as a demonstration to prove the falsity of his example, it fails. “Trump is a racist…” First declaration. I don’t know what’s in his heart, but there appears to be ample evidence to support this assertion. “…who separates children from their families.” Second declaration, and this appears to be true, as well - if we include Trump’s agents acting on his policy. Bullitt is using a single, isolated anecdote to attempt to disprove his declarations, but it isn’t up to the task without the assumption that all of those families that have been separated are also criminals. This is not a legitimate assumption. I see your point, and it’s true, as far as the example goes. I think our mutual points kind of slid past each other. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/67 "2018-07-31T03:17:32Z")
> [@SingleMalt](#): > > Bullitt, with his blanket assertions, is implying that there are no innocents here, and to that characterization, I object. Not at all. Don’t put words in my mouth. For any President of any party, there are innocents harmed, Trump is not special or unique in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/68 "2018-07-31T03:50:20Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The only way to defeat Trump is if there are more decent people than scum in this country. Right now, that’s uncertain. One of the big things you (the left) need to do is to get a handle on the superiority complex that’s running your mouths. Every time you go out of your way to insult the right you just persuade more of us to go out and vote and pick up a few of our friends on our way to the polls. So by all means, keep talking. Gift wrap the election for Trump in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/69 "2018-07-31T04:04:56Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > One of the big things you (the left) need to do is to get a handle on the superiority complex that’s running your mouths. Every time you go out of your way to insult the right you just persuade more of us to go out and vote and pick up a few of our friends on our way to the polls. > > So by all means, keep talking. Gift wrap the election for Trump in 2020. What kind of persuasion is needed to support things like this?: > **[Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: Uniting the kids? “I REALLY DON’T CARE, DO U?”...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/23/1774415/-Abbreviated-Pundit-Round-up-Uniting-the-kids-I-REALLY-DON-T-CARE-DO-U-said-President-Baby-Jail)** > > We warned you about Stephen Miller (and Steve Bannon) from the get go. We told you their boss, Donald Trump, was a racist and that they were white supremacists. We were right on each point. > > And the deplorables at the Duluth rally who loved the... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/70 "2018-07-31T04:07:42Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Not at all. Don’t put words in my mouth. For any President of any party, there are innocents harmed, Trump is not special or unique in that way. Not so. > **[Fact-Checking Family Separation | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/fact-checking-family-separation)** > [@](#): > > Is there a law that requires family separation? > > Donald Trump has repeatedly blamed family separation on a law enacted by Democrats. On June 15, he told reporters, “I hate the children being taken away,” and added, “The Democrats have to change their law — that’s their law.” Secretary Nielsen repeated this falsehood at a briefing on Monday saying, “Surely it is the beginning of the unraveling of democracy when the body who makes the laws, instead of changing them, tells the enforcement body not to enforce the law.” > > There is no law that requires the Trump administration to separate families. > > This crisis stems from a series of policy choices the Trump administration made. In fact, reports arose as early as December 2017 that the administration was considering a plan to separate border-crossing parents from their children. In March, then-DHS Secretary John Kelly confirmed this, saying it would help deter Central Americans from coming to the United States. > > Do the courts require family separation? > > Absolutely not — despite the claims of GOP leadership to the contrary. Both House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senator Chuck Grassley have blamed family separation on the courts, specifically a decades-old court agreement (known as the Flores settlement) which established protections for children to prevent their indefinite detention in unlicensed facilities. ---
**Author:** ![tjdigit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@tjdigit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tjdigit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/71 "2018-07-31T15:41:05Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > This corrosion spoken of is generated by the media to inaccurately fan the flames, tap into your emotions, get you riled up, and in the end, **have you buy their so-called “news” products.** You’re having the wool pulled over your eyes, and the so-called media outlets arebenefitting. > > They are selling, and you are buying. > > Example: Trump is a racist who separates children from their families. Oh really? You go out and commit a crime, and you too will be separated from your children. > > Here in San Francisco, making the “news” yesterday was a family, father, mother, and children. Mother is an illegal alien who has already previously bern caught by US Immigration authorities, so if she’s caught again she will be deported. She’s from South America, if it matters. Father is a US citizen, but the mother is not eligible for citizenship through him because of her previously being caught. And yet the “news” plays it up as, e.g., > > — if she is caught then she’ll be deported, and we, the USA, will have broken up their family. Uhh, NO. You both married, knowing your situation. You are like criminals on the run. > — father’s pleas of, “My only choice is to live in hiding because I love my wife and don’t want us separated.” The obvious pleas for laws to change and allow them to stay ring through the “news” story loudly. Uhh, NO. If you love your wife and family so much, then you can either (a) move them all to South America and live freely as a complete, loving family, or (b) live on the tun here, in fear of deportation. The choice is yours. > > Hogwash! This is an excellent riposte…best I’ve seen in years! Well done!!! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/72 "2018-07-31T16:35:10Z")
> [@tjdigit](#): > > This is an excellent riposte…best I’ve seen in years! Well done!!! Well done on deftly avoiding reading the previous post and cite. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/73 "2018-07-31T23:11:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Perhaps. Do your figures include money spent on Trump’s behalf by enthusiastic patriots, or just money spent by the official campaigns? No one who spent money on Trump is a “patriot.” ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/74 "2018-07-31T23:16:15Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > One of the big things you (the left) need to do is to get a handle on the superiority complex that’s running your mouths. Every time you go out of your way to insult the right you just persuade more of us to go out and vote and pick up a few of our friends on our way to the polls. > > So by all means, keep talking. Gift wrap the election for Trump in 2020. Translation: “Stop criticizing Trump and stop criticizing us… No matter how justified and obvious that criticism may be. Ruining the country is so much easier when you people keep your mouths shut.” News flash: Anything you tell me to do, I’m more inclined to do the opposite. Here’s a better idea: How about YOU people own the dumpster fire of an administration YOU created with YOUR own terrible decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/75 "2018-07-31T23:34:42Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > Trump won because he lied. He’s a politician. Politicians lie all the time. Most of them lie by omission or are deceptive (‘choice’ for abortion and ‘gun safety’ for gun control are two good examples) and people are wise to both. Trump just lied openly. People knew he was lying and he knew that and people knew that he knew (and so on down the rabbit hole). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/76 "2018-08-01T01:24:03Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > He’s a politician. Politicians lie all the time. Most of them lie by omission or are deceptive (‘choice’ for abortion and ‘gun safety’ for gun control are two good examples) and people are wise to both. Trump just lied openly. People knew he was lying and he knew that and people knew that he knew (and so on down the rabbit hole). That does remind me that there was a very significant group of voters that expected that Trump was lying too about going after health care, or minorities, or women, or LGTB people. They **did** expect that Trump was an even bigger liar than what he turned to be. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/77 "2018-08-01T05:09:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > He’s a politician. Politicians lie all the time. “You’re in pain. People feel pain all the time.” “I am literally currently on fire.” “Big deal, happens to everyone.” :rolleyes: Please do not act like this is business as usual. Obama had a tiny handful of really significant lies throughout his campaign and presidency. That’s why they stood out. That’s why “if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor” was such a big deal - and _even then_ he left himself caveats and wiggle room to argue that he didn’t lie! He lied, sure. _People_ lie. But it was entirely within reasonable bounds for both a person and a politician. Trump has lied basically non-stop. [The list is obscenely long](http://projects.thestar.com/donald-trump-fact-check/). This is not normal. _ **Stop acting like this is normal.** _ > [@](#): > > Most of them lie by omission or are deceptive (‘choice’ for abortion and ‘gun safety’ for gun control are two good examples) Okay, you do realize that this is _better_ than the alternative, right? Leaving aside that “pro-choice” is _not_ a lie or even misleading, and that I’ve literally never heard “gun safety”, a politician who lies exclusively by omission or euphemism is still sending a really important signal - _the truth matters_. They’re not willing to outright fabricate shit because they think that if they do, it will reflect badly on them. _As it should_. It’s _bad_ when people lie. The difference between “Bernie Sanders’s plan will cost $32 Trillion, an irresponsible increase in government spending” (a lie of omission - it would actually save trillions over existing health care costs) and “Bernie Sanders’s plan will cost $100 Trillion and lead to white children going to death camps to save costs” (a blatant, stupid lie that anyone interested can see is a blatant, stupid lie) is that the latter junks all pretense of caring about reality. When that kind of lying becomes the norm, becomes acceptable, we lose track of why lies matter in the first place, or indeed why the truth matters. As [Scott Alexander](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/02/23/in-favor-of-niceness-community-and-civilization/) puts it: Even the guy in the fake rape statistics post lied less than he possibly could have. He got his fake numbers by conflating rapes per sex act with rapes per lifetime, and it’s really hard for me to imagine someone doing that by anything resembling accident. But he couldn’t bring himself to go the extra step and just totally make up numbers with no grounding whatsoever. And part of me wonders: why not? If you’re going to use numbers you know are false to destroy people, why is it better to derive the numbers through a formula you know is incorrect, than to just skip the math and make the numbers up in the first place? “The FBI has determined that no false rape claims have ever been submitted, my source is an obscure report they published, when your local library doesn’t have it you will just accept that libraries can’t have all books, and suspect nothing.” This would have been a more believable claim than the one he made. Because he showed his work, it was easy for me to debunk it. If he had just said it was in some obscure report, I wouldn’t have gone through the trouble. So why did he go the harder route? People know lying is wrong. They know if they lied they would be punished. More miraculous divine grace. And so they want to hedge their bets, be able to say “Well, I didn’t exactly lie, per se.” And this is good! We want to make it politically unacceptable to have people say that Jews bake the blood of Christian children into their matzah. Now we build on that success. We start hounding around the edges of currently acceptable lies. “Okay, you didn’t literally make up your statistics, but you still lied, and you still should be cast out from the community of people who have reasonable discussions and never trusted by anyone again.” By going with this logic: > [@](#): > > Trump just lied openly. People knew he was lying and he knew that and people knew that he knew (and so on down the rabbit hole). …We are accepting a backsliding in that social order. We’re accepting that lying is _not_ a bad thing, and that it’s okay to just _make shit up_. Which the Trump administration has done on a level that is basically completely unprecedented, to the point where you see well-grounded articles titled “[Trump’s lies about Stormy Daniels and his lawyers are a reminder: never trust this White House](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/3/17312558/trump-lie-stormy-daniels-cohen-giuliani).” Because you _can’t_ trust anything Trump or the white house has to say. That wasn’t the case under Obama! That wasn’t even the case under _Bush_ - and his lies led to the greatest US foreign policy disaster since Vietnam! (A record that will likely hold at least until Bolton convinces Trump to invade Iran, so maybe another few months.) Of course, the entire logic of “I trust him because I know he’s lying to me” is so fucking ass-backwards that it pretty much only could come out of the republican base. I shouldn’t have to explain why this is phenomenally dumb logic - the whole point of pointing out lies is to show that certain people cannot be taken at their word! And you _can’t_ trust the Trump white house. On _anything_! They’ll lie about literally any subject, regardless of how quickly it’ll be shown to be a lie, regardless of how petty or stupid it is, _they cannot be trusted_! And we _know_ this! ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/78 "2018-08-01T18:05:43Z")
Most people believed/found it plausible that Trump really did have a fabulous, cheaper, better coverage health care plan. They believed he would eliminate ISIS with his secret plan. They believed he would usher in a new age of no crime. Just like they now believe he’s being unfairly targeted in a witch hunt. And of course they totally believe there was, “NO COLLUSION!” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/79 "2018-08-01T18:29:15Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > He’s a politician. Politicians lie all the time. Trump is a constant effusion of bullshit–his mouth is an uncapped stinking sewer, that has the whole country reeking. But there is a large number of people who are willing to lap up his bullshit because they can’t even smell it anymore and they believe his bogus act of “shaking things up.” So which is it? Is he just like all the other politicians who lie all the time or is he doing things differently? You can’t have it both ways–although that’s what the apologists are trying to do–to continue with their agenda as he distracts everyone with his dog and pony show. ---
**Author:** ![Discordian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@Discordian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordian)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734/80 "2018-08-02T00:35:55Z")
The disaster happens later, after the rot has set in. Oh, termites are getting into the foundational beams of the house? _yawn_ Wake me up when something serious happens. “It’s just a little termite damage to the foundation of our Constitutional Democracy” is not a good anti-anti-Trump argument. The other problem is that our government works largely because of norms, not laws. Basically everyone else who has ever been President has understood that, and didn’t grossly violated the norms surrounding the office. Trump has no shame and no concept of proper behavior, and has been running roughshod over those norms left and right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-rules-for-beating-trump/818734.md?page=5)