# The Salvation Army - Bunch of unethical, holier-than-thou ASSHOLES **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2002, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059 "2002-10-06T11:48:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/61 "2002-10-07T20:57:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > \*\*Featherlou, > > Someone has to prove they are guilty. Not assume it or “take their word for it.” > > The Sally-Ann’s reputation has far more creditibilty with me than **Omnipresents** , who either can’t or is unwilling to back anything up or give particulars. > > That just don’t cut it on the SDMB… even in the pit. \*\* Agreed - but so often on the Straight Dope, it seems to me that we are more than willing to believe people’s opinions with very little to back them up when it comes to slagging an institution; I’m finding it very interesting how unwilling people are to do the same in this particular instance. **wring** , I’m not saying charitable organization employees are overpaid, or should work for free; I have no problem with c.o. employees getting paid just like everyone else. My point is that people need to _know_ that c.o.'s have to be run like businesses so that they can STAY in business, and continue to do what they do. Working as a door-to-door canvasser for a number of different charities, I was amazed by how many people refused to donate when they learned that I was a paid canvasser for a legitimate charity. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/62 "2002-10-07T21:51:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Omnipresent \* > \*\* > Careful Degrance. Be very careful here. 😉 \*\* Is this where we cue the lightning bolts and “Trumpets of Doom” ? ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/63 "2002-10-07T22:15:26Z")
Who’d win in a fight - The Salvation Army Vs. The Rainbow Brigade? The Salvation Army Vs. The KISS Army? It sounds like we’re going to find out! Huzzah! ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/64 "2002-10-07T23:00:25Z")
The Salvation Army would beat the Kiss Army. As soon as the fighting heated up, the Kiss Army would be blinded by the mascara running into their eyes. The Salvation Army could then hit them over their heads with bells and kettles. The Kiss Army would be reasonably well-protected by their big hairdos, but it would be fairly easy for the Salvation Army to knock 'em off their platform shoes while they are dazed. ---
**Author:** ![Jurhael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Jurhael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurhael)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/65 "2002-10-08T03:01:43Z")
[I don’t believe Degrance is entirely off on what he’s saying](http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa071001a.htm) This is all I could find for now. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/66 "2002-10-08T08:04:36Z")
From the Washington Post article linked there: > [@](#): > > George Hood, a senior official with the Salvation Army, said the group never discriminates in delivering its services, but on the question of hiring gay employees, “it really begins to chew away at the theological fabric of who we are.” I have no problem with that, as anyone here who knows me knows. A business’s owners ought to be free to hire whomever they wish. I do, however, have a problem with this from the article: > [@](#): > > It already receives nearly $300 million a year in government money. Holy cow! There’s so much wrong with that, I don’t know where to start. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/67 "2002-10-08T12:24:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Libertarian_ I do, however, have a problem with this from the article: > > > [@](#): > > > > : > > It already receives nearly $300 million a year in government money. > > Holy cow! There’s so much wrong with that, I don’t know where to start. Why? The government often funds all sorts of programs. For example- programs dealing w/the homeless (federal, state and local governments can fund), job training (federal, state and local support again). etc. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/68 "2002-10-08T12:29:13Z")
Do you have any idea how much $300 million translates to once you’ve restored back to the figure all the salaries, building maintenance, administrative costs, etc.? Don’t forget that government, before it redistributes part of the loot it seizes, takes a substantial cut for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Pabitel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Pabitel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pabitel)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/69 "2002-10-08T12:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Hold it. Do I have “STUPID” written on my forehead? Maybe you’re being deceptive about what the ad really said. Special rights to perverts? Dubious. \*\* Oh come on! I was paraphasing of course. Have you been living in a closet of any sort for the past couple of decades? Here is a link to a page that give a pretty clear depiction of the tactic. [Anti-Gay Politics and the Religious Right](http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=2043) To rephrase “Special rights for perverts”. From our old buddy Pat Robertson, “I just don’t think we should craft laws that give privileges on the basis of the way people perform sex acts.” While Gary Bauer says, “While I believe homosexuals have rights, I do not think they are right. And they certainly don’t have more rights than the rest of us. They have a right to their own life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but they do not have a right to impose their views upon our lives, liberties and happiness.” Type “special rights” and “gay” into any search engine and you can read for days. The local campaign left no doubt about the “pervert” part. This was about 5 years ago though so I don’t have a quote. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/70 "2002-10-08T12:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Do you have any idea how much $300 million translates to once you’ve restored back to the figure all the salaries, building maintenance, administrative costs, etc.? Don’t forget that government, before it redistributes part of the loot it seizes, takes a substantial cut for itself. \*\* well of course I do. and of course, you also understand that 300 Mil not only is spread out from all 50 states, but probably includes funds from all governmental sources (state, federal and local). Our local SA gets grants from all levels to provide certain relief services (including a soup kitchen, food bank, clothing bank, day shelter, emeregency utility assistance etc.) to a tri county area. and I don’t doubt that they get a sizeable chunk (more than my company does, no doubt). You may have a difficulty w/the government being involved in assisting the homeless etc, but that shouldn’t translate to horror that the government allows private non profits to provide the services. Having seen the wage scale at the local SA, vs. the wage scale at say, the local government unit, I can assure you that you get ‘more bang for the buck’ as it were, with non profits providing the service. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/71 "2002-10-08T13:00:05Z")
I have a hard time taking anything in that article seriously after this bit: > [@](#): > > People of faith may be concerned about the [Christianity.com](http://Christianity.com) link as well. [Christianity.com](http://Christianity.com) in its mission statement (see third to last paragraph) specifically states that “[Christianity.com](http://Christianity.com) focuses on helping Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox organizations do more online.” No word on what happens when people of faith from other mainstream religions like Jews and Muslims attempt to join the community run by the Salvation Army’s partner. and > [@](#): > > The organization’s affiliation with a Web site that appears to favor some religions over others The Salvation Army **is** a Christian organization. Doesn’t everyone already know this? The amount of ignorance in the whole second page of that article is quite staggering. I certainly wouldn’t trust the first half of it to be accurate in anything, based on those little gems. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/72 "2002-10-08T13:29:35Z")
Someone’s been HOUSED and doesn’t want to admit it. And for the record, I fully support the addition of a forum specifically for OPs like this one. Call it, “OMFG” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/73 "2002-10-08T13:56:46Z")
“HOUSED” or “HOSED” ?? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/74 "2002-10-08T16:47:05Z")
Wring wrote: > [@](#): > > You may have a difficulty w/the government being involved in assisting the homeless etc, but that shouldn’t translate to horror that the government allows private non profits to provide the services. Having seen the wage scale at the local SA, vs. the wage scale at say, the local government unit, I can assure you that you get ‘more bang for the buck’ as it were, with non profits providing the service. That’s my point. Say you have $1,000 you want to give. Which makes more sense: pay me $200 to hand out the remaining $800 to whomever I choose, or put to work the entire $1,000 yourself in whatever way you see fit? * * * Degrance wrote: > [@](#): > > The local campaign left no doubt about the “pervert” part. This was about 5 years ago though so I don’t have a quote. So you just substitute quotes from other people. Look again. It doesn’t say STUPID up there; it says SKEPTICAL. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/75 "2002-10-08T18:08:58Z")
WADR - **Lib** look at the cost of services to the homeless. Look at the books of any organization that provides said services. See how much of it comes from private **cash** donations. and you’ll see why the governmental support (even if it’s watered down) turns out to be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/76 "2002-10-08T18:20:09Z")
**Libertarian** - With your $1000, you might be able to put a homeless family up in a hotel for a couple weeks. With $300,000, you might be able to build a homeless shelter that can feed and house 30 people and keep doing it for years. Sometimes the collective effort can be greater than the sum of individual efforts. That being said, I don’t contribute to United Way because I disagree with the way they disburse their funds, but am much more likely to write a check to Catholic Charities or my local animal shelter. As for SA, I don’t give because I dislike the ambush tactics of standing in front of a doorway, in a manner I think of as trying to “guilt” me into giving. Giving should be voluntary, not coerced. StG ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/77 "2002-10-08T20:17:28Z")
—Holy cow! There’s so much wrong with that, I don’t know where to start.— Do you mean tying public money to private discrimination? I certainly think that’s unacceptable: public money should not go to places where the public cannot participate. I shouldn’t have to pay taxes to support an organization that won’t hire me on principle, regardless of how strongly I’ll fight for their right to apply those principles privately. Do you mean the inefficiency of that method of funding? I definately agree on that score, though for the SA it’s no doubt simply a matter of status quo: the money is there to ask for, so they ask. The problem I see comes when the SA actively lobbies to both recieve federal money AND discriminate at the same time. It should pick one or the other, not push for both at once. Here’s the Post story reffered to in the link: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A37723-2001Jul9¬Found=true](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A37723-2001Jul9¬Found=true) “The report, dated May 1, defines the charity’s “objectives” as making sure states and localities can’t “impose the category of sexual orientation to the list of anti-discrimination protections” or mandate “equal benefits to domestic partnership” unless religious nonprofits are exempt from such provisions.” I don’t see the rationale for this, other than taking a smaller, more pragmatic bite off a big apple. Either it’s okay for non-governmental funded groups to discriminate, or it’s not. It can’t be only ok for religious non-profits, and it can’t be only bad for race, and okay for sexual orientation. There’s a real principle here, and the principle is what the government can or cannot tell you to do. The principle is not “I am special, and need special protections from government authority” or “my discriminatory views are special, and should be acceptable even though other views are not acceptable.” "The report also offers an image of the Salvation Army starkly different from that of volunteers ringing bells outside shopping malls at Christmas – a notion that concerns the charity. “The Salvation Army’s role will be a surprise to many in the media,” it says, urging efforts to “minimize the possibility of any ‘leak’ to the media.” So it also seems that the organization would like to keep quiet about it’s beliefs and principles. That also, I think, cannot be favorably defended. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/78 "2002-10-08T20:24:16Z")
—With your $1000, you might be able to put a homeless family up in a hotel for a couple weeks. With $300,000, you might be able to build a homeless shelter that can feed and house 30 people and keep doing it for years.— There’s no reason why “collective effort” has to mean “government effort.” People donating individually adds up in exactly the same way people being taxed individually does: without the efficiency loss of taxation. However, we shouldn’t pretend that non-profits are costless compared to government programs. Often they are free from some of the same regulatory burdens that government faces, but they still need buildings, equipment, etc. and most importantly, they need to be able to attact talented people to run their programs. All this costs money, and there is no necessarily “right” allocation between program services and staff payouts. Non-profits should be honest about what strategy they choose: and people in general should be willing to understand that sometimes higher staff salaries are WORTH the extra cost. So, in some sense, what I’m saying is that the charts about how much money goes into what are helpful for getting a sense of an organization’s overall strategy, but entirely fatuous for deciding if that strategy is a good one, and hence deserves your dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/79 "2002-10-08T20:38:22Z")
I pretty much agree with your points, Apos. Charities would be further helped if they could be free from government frivolity. I can’t recall the name of it, but a Catholic charity in Chicago that was closed down because its wastepaper baskets were plastic comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059/80 "2002-10-08T21:21:36Z")
**Apos** - neither you nor **Lib** has taken the offer to actually see what level of **cash** donations such charities receive, compared to their operating costs etc. (I specify cash 'cause the typical ‘donation’ of used clothing, furnishing etc often ends up costing the charity quite a bit in trash, sorting and selling, so that the stores don’t really make all that much over their specific costs) the local VOA runs a shelter, mostly on government grant monies. And when the local shelter for teens was going to have to close due to a loss of funding, it stayed open - not because the local population ponied up the costs, but because another governmental source was located. I reiterate - until you can convince me that private **cash** donations will fund these types of programs at the rate that they’re needed (each of the above that I’ve commented on have turned needy people away, due to a lack of funds, so even w/governmental support, there’s still a need), you’ll not have my support to take away funding. IME, re the issues of EOE etc, the local SA had to be very specific about cost centers etc, so that zero governmental dollars were supporting the church activities etc, that it only supported the charitable venues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-salvation-army-bunch-of-unethical-holier-than-thou-assholes/131059.md?page=5)