# The Sandman trailer - upd, now on Netflix **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, netflix\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921 "2022-06-09T14:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/1 "2022-06-09T14:27:04Z")
New (second) trailer was released along with the date - 5 August I’m cautiously optimistic… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/cWJTB6FPVaA/maxresdefault.jpg "The Sandman | Date Announcement | Netflix") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJTB6FPVaA) First trailer: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/VBXqrBl6pEo/maxresdefault.jpg "The Sandman | First Look | Netflix") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBXqrBl6pEo) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/2 "2022-06-09T14:43:29Z")
It looks pretty good. I hope this can come close to the other recent Neil Gaiman adaptation, Good Omens. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/3 "2022-06-09T15:07:20Z")
I don’t usually complain about race in casting, but making Death (characterized, almost defined, as being a very, very pale Goth) black seems almost deliberately provocative. (I’m fine with any—even _all_—of the other Endless being POC, but Death needs to be bone white.) It reminds me of the first appearance of Deadpool, the Merc With A Mouth, where they _remove his mouth_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/4 "2022-06-09T15:30:31Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I don’t usually complain about race in casting …and if only you kept up the habit 🙄 > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > making Death (characterized, almost defined, as being a very, very pale Goth black seems almost deliberately provocative. Did you miss the time Dream, _also_ characterized as a “very, very pale Goth”( I mean, what combo of Peter Murphy, Robert Smith and Gaiman himself wouldn’t be Goth), was a Black man? [![](https://64.media.tumblr.com/fc9e226d5771a49616ce0f2c9d20506d/723b7d2fee18cee6-28/s540x810/12382a02b9885f5326b18721566a0e703b8ba541.png) ](https://64.media.tumblr.com/fc9e226d5771a49616ce0f2c9d20506d/723b7d2fee18cee6-28/s540x810/12382a02b9885f5326b18721566a0e703b8ba541.png) As a PoC sometime-Goth, I have no problem with this casting. I loved her in _The Good Place_ and look forward to what she might do with the character. To me, the defining feature of Gaiman’s Death is _not_ her skin colour, but her _warmth_. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/5 "2022-06-09T15:55:18Z")
Hell, Dream was once a giant black car. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/6 "2022-06-10T07:28:25Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I don’t usually complain about race in casting, but making Death (characterized, almost defined, as being a very, very pale Goth) black seems almost deliberately provocative. (I’m fine with any—even _all_ —of the other Endless being POC, but Death needs to be bone white.) Yeah, it’s almost cultural appropriation (sub-cultural appropriation?) - the character was iconic and - at least in late-80s/early-90s Chicagoland - widely imitated. A generation of ankh-wearing goth girls are having their past wiped away. You could still cast the entire show by standing outside The Exit after midnight. Re. MrDribble’s counter: yeah, it was established that the Endless look different to everyone based on cultural preferences and personal biases, and I’d be cool with them playing with that occasionally, but if we’re not doing it for Dream all the time, why Death? In reality, it’s a marketing/messaging play. If you want a person of color in the Endless, Death is the most palatable after Dream himself. Desire (greedy), Despair (miserable), and Delirium (junkie or nutjob) have negative connotations; if one of them is black, the question becomes _why_ that character? What’s the subtext? Whereas with did the only worry is the obvious Black Death puns. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/7 "2022-06-10T08:33:07Z")
> [@epbrown](#): > > Yeah, it’s almost cultural appropriation You realize Gaiman himself is a producer here, right? The only appropriation that can happen is from him. And _he’s_ cool with the casting. Chicago Hot Topic Babybats don’t get a say. Although I must say, Chicago Goth girls must have been _uber_-comics fans to have adopted Death wholesale in the “late-80s” already, given she first appeared August of '89… 🤨 > [@epbrown](#): > > A generation of ankh-wearing goth girls are having their past wiped away. I was unaware Gaiman was buying up every copy of the comics and burning them 🙄 > [@epbrown](#): > > if we’re not doing it for Dream all the time, why Death? Because Gaiman and the other producers want to. > [@epbrown](#): > > if one of them is black, the question becomes _why_ that character? Maybe they found an actor who could project Death’s _actual_ defining characteristics, like warmth and humour? > [@epbrown](#): > > What’s the subtext? I don’t know, maybe, just _maybe_: Your skin colour is irrelevant to your character. What a _terrible_ message to convey /s I’m reminded how some readers’ minds were blown because they’d read all of _American Gods_ and hadn’t realized Shadow was PoC until the TV show. Gaiman-related TV has been doing this since _Neverwhere_, up until _Good Omens_, I don’t see why this is surprising to _anyone_. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/8 "2022-06-10T09:34:57Z")
Death is Death. She’s a lively, vivacious, young girl who tries to make her “clients” accept what their fate is, without actually telling them their fate. How she presents herself, in whatever skin colour, is immaterial to her role in the grand scheme–that is, to comfort and escort clients to whatever comes next. I hope that the movie will allude to the fact that Death is there for us twice, as Gaiman stated in the books–at our birth, and at our death. Her Ankh pendant represents our life, and her hand represents our death. No matter the Death character’s skin color, this is what matters in the story. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/9 "2022-06-10T12:51:55Z")
Cross-posting from the thread about “woke” movies (my bolding): > [@How "woke" are movies really?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-woke-are-movies-really/965849/70): > > BTW, this is what Neil, Himself [has to say](https://www.thewrap.com/the-sandman-casting-desire-death-nonbinary-black-neil-gaiman-defends/) about the casting: > > “I give zero fucks about people who don’t understand/ haven’t read Sandman whining about a non-binary Desire or that Death isn’t white enough.” > > and > > "Someone who could speak the truth to Dream, on the one hand, but **also be the person you’d want to meet when your life was done on the other**. And then we saw Kirby Howell-Baptiste’s (she/her) audition and we knew we had our Death.” > > He clearly cares more about character than colour. And it’s _his_ damn character, so he _is_ right (Death of the Author be damned) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/10 "2022-06-10T13:07:18Z")
It’s a bit racist to suggest that black girls can’t be goths. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/11 "2022-06-10T13:11:02Z")
So it looks like you were asking for a **warning** and you got it. > [@epbrown](#): > > Re. MrDribble’s counter: Do not change user’s usernames to insult them. _I can’t believe I even had to write that._ ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/12 "2022-06-10T13:19:18Z")
Neil Gaiman has been tweeting about this quite a bit. I’m not sure he is show-running it like he did with Good Omens, but he’s pretty involved. Due to some licensing issues, I think, it should also be noted that modern-day Constantine is actually going to be Johanna Constantine in this show instead of the regular Constantine we know from Hellblazer. Jenna Coleman plays her and also plays the ancestor in the past. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/13 "2022-06-10T13:25:21Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’m not sure he is show-running it like he did with Good Omens, but he’s pretty involved. He’s a producer, but not a show-runner. He’s said he’s more involved than with _American Gods_, but less than with _Good Omens_. He’s definitely been involved with casting. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/14 "2022-06-10T13:28:04Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > It’s a bit racist to suggest that black girls can’t be goths. I used “goth” as a shorthand for “very, very pale with black clothes and black hair”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/15 "2022-06-10T13:32:03Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I used “goth” as a shorthand for “very, very pale with black clothes and black hair”. That’s not what goth means. That’s like using “punk” as shorthand for “guys with mohawks” or “preppies” as shorthand for “blonds in sweaters”. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/16 "2022-06-10T13:33:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s not what goth means. Maybe not, but [Google Image Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=Goth+girls&client=firefox-b-1-m&channel=ts&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiloKbB_6L4AhUdDkQIHVZCBjgQ_AUIBigB&biw=432&bih=580) is sure on my side. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/17 "2022-06-10T13:38:37Z")
Any pictures of Death online yet? I don’t see why being Black is a big deal. Next year, Disney Plus has a Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief tv show coming out and Annabeth Chase, a blonde “California girl” in the book, will be Black in the new show. Her blonde hair is a prominent feature in the book(s), but it makes little difference to simply ignore it in the show. It makes about zero difference. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/18 "2022-06-10T13:38:59Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > That’s not what goth means. > > Maybe not, but [Google Image Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=Goth+girls&client=firefox-b-1-m&channel=ts&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiloKbB_6L4AhUdDkQIHVZCBjgQ_AUIBigB&biw=432&bih=580) is sure on my side. Google Image Search is [itself](https://time.com/5209144/google-search-engine-algorithm-bias-racism/) [notoriously](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/09/three-black-teenagers-anger-as-google-image-search-shows-police-mugshots) [racist](https://www.vox.com/2018/4/3/17168256/google-racism-algorithms-technology), so you’re hardly doing yourself any favours in citing it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/19 "2022-06-10T13:42:03Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Her blonde hair is a prominent feature in the book(s), but it makes little difference to simply ignore it in the show. Or she can be Black with blonde hair. It happens. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47774/32.png) [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/20 "2022-06-10T13:42:50Z")
Wow. This escalated. First, that was a typo, not an insult. I went to use multi-quote and couldn’t find it, so had to type it manually when responding to two different posts. In context, I can’t see why that’s the conclusion you went for but this seems a touchier subject than I thought. Second, my comment was tongue-in-cheek. I really couldn’t care less what race any of the characters are. I suspect Gaiman and I are of similar minds - the Endless are just representations of abstract concepts that transcend race. Nothing about Death is tied to race or gender, demonstrated in the books themselves by the Endless being seen as various races. Nor do I think there are scores of aging goth girls crying out for media representation. And, for the record, I won’t be watching the show. I like a lot of things about Gaiman’s work, but I find his protagonists annoying. I quit reading Sandman, I gave up on American Gods, and I found even the trailers for that last show about the angel and demon too annoying for words. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921.md?page=2)