# The Sandman trailer - upd, now on Netflix **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, netflix\ **Created:** [June 9, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921 "2022-06-09T14:27:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/101 "2022-06-11T16:14:15Z")
I read all those books when they came out, and I can assure you that the only confusing thing is what the Endless are supposed to be—obviously, they are not “real guys” as in flesh-and-blood heroes, nor are they gods, precisely, nor are they pure archetypoi (how come Dream has “issues”? Cf., e.g., the princess in the fur coat at the end of _Der Spiegel im Spiegel_ (1983), though she is a subtly different archetype). In other words, Gaiman is crafting his own mythological figures. But one thing that never comes up is what they “really” look like. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/102 "2022-06-11T18:30:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m curious if anyone has their books handy and can flip through them. I don’t own the books, so I’m having to rely on Internet searches, which makes it trickier. I have every issue of every “Sandverse” comic on my tablet right now, and just started a reread yesterday. What are you looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/103 "2022-06-11T19:09:57Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I have every issue of every “Sandverse” comic on my tablet right now, and just started a reread yesterday. What are you looking for? Well, you say: > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I mean all her exposed skin should be powder white, in a way that no human can without makeup. So my curiosity is, which artists draw her that way, and which artists draw her as having skin in the normal human spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/104 "2022-06-11T19:49:34Z")
Asserting that the race/skin color of a character–who is supernatural and whose significant traits have nothing to do with human notions of race–is so fundamentally and essentially defining of the character that casting a black actor in the role fundamentally changes the character … is kind of the defnition of racism. Even more so than the recent outrages over casting of M.J. in _Spider-Man_ or that character in _Hunger Games_. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/105 "2022-06-11T19:58:29Z")
I disagree. With the latter part for sure. And i don’t like the general piling on and the strawmen. If in the recent casting of Martian Manhunter they didn’t make him green (as Jonn Jonnz)…and i objected…thats not a racist statement. Its very silly! And i think this whole thing is the definition of American privilege, but its not racist. I heartily recommend we drop it. It’s been noted, and pretty much all points have come out. Some even accidentally. (EG: representation among a 1990s marginalized community…rebuttal: “I think they’ll be allright”) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/106 "2022-06-11T20:00:19Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > representation among a 1990s marginalized community Who would that be? White girls in Chicago? Please! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/107 "2022-06-11T20:08:27Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > And i think this whole thing is the definition of American privilege, but its not racist. What are you talking about, exactly? What about “this whole thing” is the definition of American privilege? Who is benefiting from privilege in this scenario? I don’t know who is supposed to be the American and who is supposed to be a non-American in this scenario. However, I will say that the fact that American studios often refuse to cast black actors in roles because that “wouldn’t be accepted in Asia” (“black doesn’t travel”) is also a racist practice, in more than one way. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/108 "2022-06-11T20:10:46Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > (EG: representation among a 1990s marginalized community…rebuttal: “I think they’ll be allright”) Are you saying that casting a black actor should be considered offensive to 1990s goth girls? Goth girls cannot by definition be black? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/109 "2022-06-11T20:51:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So my curiosity is, which artists draw her that way, and which artists draw her as having skin in the normal human spectrum? Skimming through a couple of thousand pages… Two things I noticed. Death actually shows up much less often than I remembered, and almost all the Endless are almost always shown as the same pure white as Death. Of the times one is shown with some skin color, it is almost always Delirium. (The pages, of course, contain potential spoilers) [[Album] imgur.com ![](https://i.imgur.com/OG4hIjd.jpeg?fb "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/a/TUAPJVF) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/110 "2022-06-11T20:57:44Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > If in the recent casting of Martian Manhunter they didn’t make him green (as Jonn Jonnz)…and i objected…thats not a racist statement. Something like that actually happened in _Titans_. Beastboy isn’t green and Starfire isn’t orange. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/111 "2022-06-11T21:15:49Z")
Ironically enough for “Death”, her defining features appear to be the Eye of Horus and an ankh. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/112 "2022-06-11T21:21:24Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > And i think this whole thing is the definition of American privilege, but its not racist. Wait, is this one of those Sargon of Akkad type things whereby there is a unique American disease of racism that makes us do crazy things like allow the casting of black actors in roles that “naturally” or “logically” can only be played by white actors, and because Europeans don’t suffer from the American disease they sensibly don’t try to give opportunities to black actors and do the right thing by reserving roles for white actors only? And it’s the privilege of Americans having such a strong entertainment industry to impose the crazy notion of allowing black actors to play naturally white roles on the whole world? Is that what American privilege means? > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Something like that actually happened in _Titans_ . Beastboy isn’t green and Starfire isn’t orange. Right. And I have a lot of criticisms of that show but this wasn’t one of them. Similarly, I wouldn’t have thought much about Snyder changing Martian Manhunter’s skin color. Martians don’t actually exist, so you can choose to portray them how you want. (As it turns out, they cast that role pretty well—I don’t have any complaints about the cast of Justice League, except that they left out any Green Lantern or Green Arrow—but the movie was terrible for other reasons.) ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/113 "2022-06-11T21:43:03Z")
Yes. That’s the entirety of the late 80s early 90s worldwide punk/ goth scene….just “some white girls in Chicago”. I thought we had determined that other races could be in that scene. Regardless reductum and sweeping dismissal is only the tip of the bad faith arguments in the last hour…so I won’t be responding to any of them. Save your breath ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/114 "2022-06-11T21:51:38Z")
Well, I guess this thread has gone down this path and there is no stopping it. I just wonder what they didn’t pick Destiny as a POC. There are a number of solid middle aged black actors with deep beautiful commanding voices that would be perfect. Myself I would have cast Death as Asian with a “painted” unnaturally white face. I have no issues at all with adding or changing a comic or book to add some variety. What I don’t like is - > [@epbrown](#): > > If you want a person of color in the Endless, Death is the most palatable after Dream himself. Desire (greedy), Despair (miserable), and Delirium (junkie or nutjob) have negative connotations; if one of them is black, the question becomes _why_ that character? What’s the subtext? Whereas with did the only worry is the obvious Black Death puns. i.e you can have a POC, but only in a sympathetic role? I’d cast Rebel Wilson or someone like her as Delight with Margot Robbie as Delirium, and have them interchange. And it is not racism to ask that a character in a film look like the same character in the source material. I remember lots of complaints about Tom Cruise as a short Jack Reacher. Mind you I have no real issues with the change, and if the series goes on a long time maybe white (not Caucasian, I mean an unnatural shade of pure white) goth girl or even the dude with the robe and the scythe could show up. who knows? However, doubtless Netflix will fuck this up anyway, so there is that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/115 "2022-06-11T23:49:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Skimming through a couple of thousand pages… > > Two things I noticed. Death actually shows up much less often than I remembered, and almost all the Endless are almost always shown as the same pure white as Death. Of the times one is shown with some skin color, it is almost always Delirium. Interesting–thanks for those examples! (For other folks, the link will take you to eight images). Notice in the last one, how Death has more peach in her skin than Dream has. I don’t think it’s canon that she’s bone-colored. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/116 "2022-06-12T00:05:45Z")
> [@Pavelb1](#): > > If in the recent casting of Martian Manhunter they didn’t make him green (as Jonn Jonnz)…and i objected…thats not a racist statement. Its very silly! And i think this whole thing is the definition of American privilege, but its not racist. The thing is, I _didn’t_ object when Selina Kyle got played magnificently by Michelle Pfeiffer: to the best of my knowledge, the character wasn’t blonde in the comics, but I don’t believe I’ve _ever_ said a word against Pfeiffer and so — well, look: if I am, and always have been, okay with swapping out hair color when going from comics to screen, then how the heck can I now say anything against swapping out skin color? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/117 "2022-06-12T00:29:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting–thanks for those examples! (For other folks, the link will take you to eight images). Notice in the last one, how Death has more peach in her skin than Dream has. I don’t think it’s canon that she’s bone-colored. There should be 14 images? And that last image is the very first frame that she ever appeared in in the series, in issue 8. Dream is sitting feeding pigeons. A young woman walks up and sits by him and starts talking. She isn’t introduced. It is only over the next few pages that we realize that she isn’t just some random person making conversation with a stranger, and that the two of them are well aquainted, and eventually realize that she is Death. So she needed to be more human-looking for plot related reasons in that first appearance. But in the majority of all illustrations in the comic series, all of the Endless are bone-white (except for occasionally Delirium, as I mentioned). Saying that _almost_ all appearances do not establish canon is extreme cherry-picking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2022, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/118 "2022-06-12T00:53:34Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > But in the majority of all illustrations in the comic series, all of the Endless are bone-white (except for occasionally Delirium, as I mentioned). Saying that _almost_ all appearances do not establish canon is extreme cherry-picking. Do you really think this constitutes part of some cogent analysis of artistic adaptation? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The thing is, I _didn’t_ object when Selina Kyle got played magnificently by Michelle Pfeiffer: to the best of my knowledge, the character wasn’t blonde in the comics, but I don’t believe I’ve _ever_ said a word against Pfeiffer and so — well, look: if I am, and always have been, okay with swapping out hair color when going from comics to screen, then how the heck can I now say anything against swapping out skin color? I also didn’t object to Halle Berry’s being cast as Catwoman. It wasn’t a good movie, but that had nothing to do with the skin color of the actor cast in that role. I also don’t object that in the magnificent _Harley Quinn_ cartoon series on HBO, Catwoman is currently drawn as a person of color. That particular adaptation works well artistically, and it’s neither because of nor in spite of the skin color of the portrayal. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > Regardless reductum and sweeping dismissal is only the tip of the bad faith If you could actually demonstrate any of this happening as the primary counter to your arguments, that would be a conversation, but you can’t. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > And i don’t like the general piling on and the strawmen. If you could show any significant strawmen, that would be interesting. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > BUT…when she was a Chinese human, she was alabaster. So…my point is moot. It’s unclear what you mean by this. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > For me, she is wrong because she does not have _literally_ white skin. I don’t mean pinkish Caucasian, I mean all her exposed skin should be powder white, in a way that no human can without makeup. This idea that “in my head, X looks like Y” is not support for the argument that “an actor of Z race can’t be chosen to portray X in an adaptation.” And this is all before anyone has seen even one minute of the actual show. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And it is not racism to ask that a character in a film look like the same character in the source material. If it amounts to saying “a black actor can’t play this role,” then, yes, it’s racism. Doubly so when we are talking about adapting a comic book character to a live action producation. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2022, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/119 "2022-06-12T00:55:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you really think this constitutes part of some cogent analysis of artistic adaptation? No, I think it is a objectively factual observation of the content of the comics. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921/120 "2022-06-12T00:59:38Z")
Guys you can’t stop Darren from getting upset that a black actor got cast in role he thinks she shouldn’t have. Let’s move on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-trailer-upd-now-on-netflix/965921.md?page=7)