# The Sandman TV Show thread (See OP for spoiler policy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, netflix\ **Created:** [August 5, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145 "2022-08-05T15:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/181 "2022-08-27T03:32:47Z")
Lucienne (neé Lucien) was originally the presenter of _Tales of Ghost Castle_, a horror anthology series by DC in the mid 70s. Neil Gaiman then moved him to the Dreaming, much like Cain, Able, Eve, and Destiny. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/182 "2022-08-27T09:50:23Z")
Gaiman obviously “nicked” many of his characters, but that still does not answer my question as to whether Lucien has a known biography or backstory (even one written by Gaiman). Is the [dream](https://archive.org/details/Lucian06HowToWriteHistoryHerodotus/Lucian%2003%20Sacrifices%2C%20Book%20Collector%2C%20Lover%20of%20Lies/page/214/mode/2up) connection merely a coincidence? [Technically he was recruited by “Paideia” in a dream.] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/183 "2022-08-27T11:41:51Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Gaiman obviously “nicked” many of his characters He didn’t nick them, even in quotes - he was given free reign to use/reimagine characters such as Lucien, Cain&Abel and Destiny by the characters’ owner, DC. That was the whole original premise of the comic, a reimagining of the existing Sandman property, with other DC mystery/horror comic stuff thrown in as it progressed. It’s not a nicking if he was asked to do it. The backstory for Lucien given in the comics is that he was Death’s first raven. And hence _possibly_ Adam, the first man. . There is no connection to Lucian that is ever alluded to. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/184 "2022-08-27T12:18:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s not a nicking if he was asked to do it. I know, but I put “nicked” in quotes because I was quoting Gaiman himself [referring in that case to Destiny] (see Post #175 🙂 The Sandman Companion merely says > [@](#): > > …I went into the DC offices while I was writing _Sandman 2_ and asked if anyone had a picture of Lucien and information on his background; but no one remembered much about him. Finally, Tom Peyer, who was Karen’s assistant editor at the time, spent half a day digging around the DC archives to get me what I needed. > […] > I was also thinking of George MacDonald’s book _Lilith_, which described a tall man in a frock coat who turns into a raven, and who is actually Adam, the first man. That image always stuck in my mind, and it definitely informed my handling of Lucien, who’s dressed in a frock coat and—as is revealed in part 12 of _The Kindly Ones_—began as the first raven. So, that seems to put paid to the notion that Lucien = Lucian, for at least Gaiman did not mention anything like that. There is one reference to Lucian in _Locke and Key: The Golden Age_ (for which Gaiman supposedly “[read] scripts, review[ed] PDFs, and [lent them] his support, advice, and attention” in which Locke receives letters from “Abel Adamson” and “Lucien Samsat” from the lands of “Nod” and “Slumbering”, but that could merely be _her_ imagination at work (and/or Joe Hill’s). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/185 "2022-08-28T18:39:28Z")
Does this show pick up after Episode 5? The Diner episode was incredibly boring and bad. I’m ready to give up on the series. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/186 "2022-08-28T18:42:51Z")
On rewatch, I almost skipped the diner episode, but I decided not to. Wound up enjoying it more than I thought I would. Yes, the rest of the season is better. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/187 "2022-08-28T18:46:30Z")
The diner episode was the low point of the series, but it gets better. If you didn’t like any of the first four, then you might just not like the show in general, though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/188 "2022-08-28T18:51:07Z")
First 4 were all slow, except for the bit with Constantine, but 5 was epically bad. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/189 "2022-08-28T18:57:06Z")
The Sound of Her Wings is next. See if you like that one. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/190 "2022-08-28T19:23:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Does this show pick up after Episode 5? The Diner episode was incredibly boring and bad. I’m ready to give up on the series. Watch episode 6, which is considered one of the best. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/191 "2022-08-29T17:29:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The backstory for Lucien given in the comics is that he was Death’s first raven. And hence _possibly_ Adam, the first man. The first part is explicitly mentioned. The second one I question, because in (IIRC) the _The Dreaming_ spinoff series with Abel, Cain and Goldie we meet Adam and he’s kind of an idiot. Maybe he gets better later… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2022, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/192 "2022-08-29T19:36:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The second one I question, because in (IIRC) the _The Dreaming_ spinoff series with Abel, Cain and Goldie we meet Adam and he’s kind of an idiot. Although … _that_ series wasn’t actually _written_ by Gaiman. He had approval, but if the writers moved away from his own conception (as outlined in the _Companion_) he might just have decided to roll with it. It’s also entirely possible for there to be multiple of … that guy. Just as there are multiple Sandmans. _Sandmen_. Whatevers. ---
**Author:** ![Oswald\_Bastable](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oswald_bastable/32/214_2.png) [@Oswald\_Bastable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oswald_Bastable)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/193 "2022-08-31T13:05:06Z")
> [@sohvan](#): > > The diner episode was the low point of the series, but it gets better. If you didn’t like any of the first four, then you might just not like the show in general, though. At odds with most others I actually preferred the diner episode to ‘The Sound of Her Wings’, which I found oddly disjointed (although perhaps I’m a bit over-read in the ‘immortals meet through time’ theme). I’ve not quite finished the season yet, but I do feel the show picks up considerably in the second half of the season with the Vortex/Rose storyline, but I’ve always preferred long-form to episodic storytelling. The first six episodes are very much origin/backstory in my opinion, before we get into an extended story arc in the next episodes. Many shows may well have split these into separate seasons, so at least we can be thankful for the lack of padding. OB ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/194 "2022-08-31T14:48:42Z")
I’m surprised so many people are down on the diner episode, I thought it was amazing. Incredible tension throughout. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/195 "2022-08-31T14:49:24Z")
It felt like a poorly done Twilight Zone Episode to me. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/196 "2022-08-31T15:18:04Z")
It wasn’t bad, but it commited the number one sin that makes a piece of narrative art lose points in my view: none of the characters was likeable or interesting, I didn’t really care what happened to them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/197 "2022-08-31T15:40:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m surprised so many people are down on the diner episode, I thought it was amazing. Same here. I especially thought the changes from the book were for the better. > [@Frodo](#): > > none of the characters was likeable or interesting I thought they were mostly interesting. Likeable? That’s kind of the point Dee was making. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > It felt like a poorly done Twilight Zone Episode to me. I don’t recall much eyestabbing and sex on Twilight Zone. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/198 "2022-08-31T15:59:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I thought they were mostly interesting. Likeable? That’s kind of the point Dee was making. I understood the point, but still didn’t like the episode, others may find the characters interesting, I didn’t. I’m not saying the episode was bad, mind you, just that I didn’t much like it. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/199 "2022-08-31T16:01:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m surprised so many people are down on the diner episode, I thought it was amazing. Incredible tension throughout. I wonder how much of a difference it makes whether you’re already familiar with the story from the comic book or not. It’s a small sample size, but I’ve heard multiple people who’ve read the comics praise the episode as a good adaptation, and multiple people who are first time watchers not really liking it that much. I’ve never read the comic books personally. I didn’t really get any sense of tension from the episode. I didn’t care about any of the characters aside from John Dee, and I thought it was boring until it suddenly turned into a splatter film. I think it would be a very different viewing experience if you already know where it’s going. I just thought it was a pretty forgettable episode, when the rest of the season was mostly great. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145/200 "2022-08-31T16:14:49Z")
As 1 datapoint, I never read the comics. In fact I’ve rarely read any comics ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sandman-tv-show-thread-see-op-for-spoiler-policy/969145.md?page=11)