# The Savile effect, or biggest post-mortem fall from grace **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2015, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439 "2015-08-10T10:23:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/21 "2015-08-11T19:03:14Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > “Reviled” might be too strong a word, but [Charles Kuralt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Kuralt), the jovial journalist who made a career out of telling stories of everyday people, was discovered after his death to have a second family. But wasn’t even that story secondary to the fact that Kuralt was really such a rude egotistical jerk that nobody at CBS could stand him and that the “On the Road” segments came about because they wanted to get him out of the studio and couldn’t fire him? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/22 "2015-08-11T19:26:28Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > My kids were taught that he was a selfish, exploiting buffoon who infected the peaceful indigenous populace with disease and couldn’t navigate his way out of a mud puddle. Whatever you think about Columbus, he was an excellent navigator. His assumptions were wrong, but not without some basis, and he managed to navigate pretty accurately back in his voyages 2-4 (and remember – no one knew how to calculate longitude in his day). He treated the natives like crap, but that was how any European of the time would have treated them. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/23 "2015-08-11T20:26:41Z")
Not all Europeans were as extreme in their behavior or beliefs as Columbus–many of the friars, although you wouldn’t exactly call them PC by our standards, were appalled by the way their fellow Spaniards treated the natives. And the fact that Columbus was a good navigator doesn’t mean we should handwave away his cruelty, no matter how widespread it was among his peers. Columbus isn’t responsible for the actions of people who followed him, but there’s a reason he gets a national holiday in the U.S.–he was a trailblazer. I’d say the current awareness of just what a disaster the “opening” of the New World was for the people already living here, in addition to his own actions, make a heavy downward revision of his reputation fair and warranted. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/24 "2015-08-11T21:59:14Z")
Columbus had slavery on his mind from day 1 of landing in the new world, read the official accounts. HOWEVER as a man of his time he had no concept of bacteria or viruses, so he had no clue what he and his crew were doing infecting native populations. (There is a display here that claims to be a boat anchor from Columbus’s boat in concrete by the side of the road, wonder if it is authenticated. EDIT:Huh turns out it is real! > **[Remembering Christopher Columbus](https://www.guardian.co.tt/article-6.2.426722.153105f4f5)** > > News ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/25 "2015-08-11T22:02:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t know that I’d call it sad. That’s what I said. Nobody seems very sad that his own invention strangled him to death. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/26 "2015-08-11T22:03:44Z")
Ooh, there’s no doubt Columbus’s reputation has deservedly taken a hit, but he was a first-class sailor and he’s far from the only explorer to massacre natives. Back to the OP, in science fiction there’s Marion Summer Bradley. At the time of her death she was a beloved figure in the field for her encouragement of young writers and of women writers. She even funded a magazine at a loss to give writers a place to publish, as well as several anthologies featuring female protagonists. During her lifetime, her husband was charged with pedophilia. She stood by him, but that didn’t affect her reputation; it was felt she just had been duped. After her death, he daughter spoke up to say Marion sexually abused her for years. Her books were withdrawn from print. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/27 "2015-08-11T22:31:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Various notable ancient Greeks (Plato, Archimedes, Eratosthenes, etc.) had much better estimates of the Earth’s size than that. In face, Plato and Archimedes substantially _overestimated_ the size. Eratosthenes, however, got it right, within about 1%. > > [Determining the earth’s size](http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/~jochen/gtech201/lectures/lec6concepts/Datums/Determining%20the%20earths%20size.htm). But Columbus latched onto Ptolemy’s calculation combined with several other errors - the confusion over units (“Stadia”) and the size of one degree longitude, the distance to China from Europe. As a result, he calculated he need only sail 3,000 miles west to reach the Orient. The problem was, the majority of scholars believed the more accurate version, and so he had severe difficulties persuading anyone to finance a 3,000 mile trip when the better evidence was the trip was 10,000 miles. Spain took a gamble because they were trying to compete with Portugal who had a lock on the eastward route around Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/28 "2015-08-11T23:36:17Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Back to the OP, in science fiction there’s Marion Summer Bradley. Marion _Zimmer_ Bradley, but yes that’s a really excellent example. Her reputation went from sterling, to distinctly hinky, to utter shit fairly rapidly in the space of not much more than a decade. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/29 "2015-08-11T23:41:46Z")
I wonder how many more there are that never got revealed. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/30 "2015-08-12T00:15:03Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Ooh, there’s no doubt Columbus’s reputation has deservedly taken a hit, but he was a first-class sailor and he’s far from the only explorer to massacre natives. > > Back to the OP, in science fiction there’s Marion Summer Bradley. At the time of her death she was a beloved figure in the field for her encouragement of young writers and of women writers. She even funded a magazine at a loss to give writers a place to publish, as well as several anthologies featuring female protagonists. > > During her lifetime, her husband was charged with pedophilia. She stood by him, but that didn’t affect her reputation; it was felt she just had been duped. > > After her death, he daughter spoke up to say Marion sexually abused her for years. Her books were withdrawn from print. Great example, but her books have not been withdrawn from print. Her e-book publisher is donating all profits to charity, and is at least one author of books in her worlds. But her paperback publisher appears to be keeping the money, or the share of it that does not go to the estate. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/31 "2015-08-12T00:38:46Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Marion _Zimmer_ Bradley, but yes that’s a really excellent example. Her reputation went from sterling, to distinctly hinky, to utter shit fairly rapidly in the space of not much more than a decade. Damn autocorrect. :smack: I knew her brother casually from cons (he died while attending a convention I was running), but never met Marion. But before her death, everyone held her in very high esteem. She did great things for women and for the genre (and founded the Society for Creative Anachronism). Her daughter’s revelations shocked everyone in the field. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/32 "2015-08-12T05:39:47Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > Great example, but her books have not been withdrawn from print. Her e-book publisher is donating all profits to charity, and is at least one author of books in her worlds. But her paperback publisher appears to be keeping the money, or the share of it that does not go to the estate. Wouldn’t her posthumous royalties go to her (abused) child as her heir? Or is there an interesting story there? I don’t see the logic of diverting her estate’s income. And, I have probably two dozen large boxes of sci-fi books in my basement waiting to be unpacked some decade, and this is the first I’ve heard of this. I’m sure I have some of her books. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/33 "2015-08-12T06:06:46Z")
Eric Gill (1882-1940, artist and typeface designer) is another example. From the [Wikipedia article on Gill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gill#Personal_life): > [@](#): > > His personal diaries describe his sexual activity in great detail, including extramarital affairs, incest with his two eldest teen daughters, incestuous relationships with his sisters, and sexual acts on his dog.[24] This aspect of Gill’s life was little known until publication of the 1989 biography by Fiona MacCarthy. The 1966 biography by Robert Speaight mentioned none of it. He isn’t exactly “reviled” now, however. His sculptures are visible all over London and the Gill Sans typeface is still frequently used. ---
**Author:** ![Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Harvey\_The\_Heavy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harvey_The_Heavy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/34 "2015-08-12T08:43:13Z")
Joan Crawford. Probably not a surprise to Bette Davis, but I think _Mommie Dearest_ caused quite a drop in the public’s perception of her. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/35 "2015-08-12T10:23:49Z")
Rolf Harris has gone from bad to worse. According to the [Daily Mail](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123036/Rolf-Harris-s-vile-jail-song-shock-letter-cell-shamed-star-reveals-country-rock-lyrics-damn-sex-victims-greedy-wenches-brags-cushy-prison-life.html) (so excuse the hyperbole), ‘Rolf Harris’s vile jail song: In shock letter from cell, shamed star reveals ‘country rock’ lyrics that damn his sex victims as greedy ‘wenches’ – then brags about cushy prison life.’ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/36 "2015-08-12T10:34:32Z")
That’s pretty horrible - I was prepared for the Mail to have exaggerated the facts of the matter but Harris’s own words are all kinds of nasty. Also: there are still graphologists? Hasn’t that all been thoroughly debunked by now? ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/37 "2015-08-12T16:13:07Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Wouldn’t her posthumous royalties go to her (abused) child as her heir? Or is there an interesting story there? I don’t see the logic of diverting her estate’s income. I don’t know for sure, but there is a page run by her estate, which holds copyright on her works. How the money actually flows and if any goes to any of the children I don’t know. You could ask them but the estate site is unsurprisingly completely sanitized. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/38 "2015-08-12T17:11:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > But Columbus latched onto Ptolemy’s calculation combined with several other errors - the confusion over units (“Stadia”) and the size of one degree longitude, the distance to China from Europe. As a result, he calculated he need only sail 3,000 miles west to reach the Orient. > > The problem was, the majority of scholars believed the more accurate version, and so he had severe difficulties persuading anyone to finance a 3,000 mile trip when the better evidence was the trip was 10,000 miles. Spain took a gamble because they were trying to compete with Portugal who had a lock on the eastward route around Africa. Yup, and then he lucked out because there was an entire supercontinent about a third of the way to China which he had no possibility whatever of missing. Per the OP, it is really difficult to find a competitor to Savile no matter how you try. It’s not just the heinous nature and appalling number of his offences, but the fact that before his death he was generally held to be a living saint - as his assorted titles and awards bear witness. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/39 "2015-08-13T10:11:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > and founded the Society for Creative Anachronism No, she just gave it a name, Diana Paxson founded it, if any one person did. And I’d say the work of Stephen Goldin had already done enough to her reputation (at least, I and several of my IRL friends were Darkover fans and his information stopped that once we found out about the Breendoggle and subsequent court case testimony) and that was years before Moira Greyland’s revelations. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439/40 "2015-08-13T10:15:24Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I don’t know for sure, but there is a page run by her estate, which holds copyright on her works. How the money actually flows and if any goes to any of the children I don’t know. You could ask them but the estate site is unsurprisingly completely sanitized. _None_ of it goes to her kids, her partner (Lisa Waters, who also did not come out well in court testimony from Breen’s trial) was her sole beneficiary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-savile-effect-or-biggest-post-mortem-fall-from-grace/727439.md?page=3)