# The Schiavo Case **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917 "2005-04-12T03:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/41 "2005-04-13T21:48:09Z")
[QUOTE=wonderwench] > [@widdleytinks](#): > > Riddle me this: Do you think Terri would have wanted Michael making the life or death decision if she had known he was living with another woman who had borne him children? > > I doubt it. If he was trying to follow HER OWN wishes, then yes, I do believe she would have wanted that. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/42 "2005-04-13T21:48:30Z")
> [@flight](#): > > OK, so she has been dead for a while now. What came of the autopsy? Was there any living cerebral material? Was it, as they expected, purely fluid? Seems we have to wait a bit for that answer (dunno why): > [@](#): > > Results from the autopsy, which was completed Friday [April 1], will not be released for several weeks, according to the medical examiner’s office. > > SOURCE: [http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/02/schiavo.ap/?section=cnn\_mostpopular](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/02/schiavo.ap/?section=cnn_mostpopular) ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/43 "2005-04-13T21:50:51Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Which issue do you think it nails? That our society now sanctions the murder of disabled people based upon the bigotry of “normals” - who pass judgement that the disabled should be put out of their misery because nobody would choose to live like that. Terri did not leave a Living Will. We would not be having this discussion if her wishes had been documented. We have nothing but Michael’s very suspicious and 7 years too late recollection. As a society, we are now erring on the side of death instead of on the side of life. Twist and spin it any way you wish - this is what is at bottom. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/44 "2005-04-13T21:52:39Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Who said she was brain dead? If she wasn’t brain dead, then withholding nutrition was euthanasia. She was alive. Removal of food and water killed her. Or we could call it murder. What is it exactly when someone who is not terminally ill is denied the sustenance to keep her alive? ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/45 "2005-04-13T21:54:07Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] > [@wonderwench](#): > > If he was trying to follow HER OWN wishes, then yes, I do believe she would have wanted that. Why didn’t he mention her wishes during the seven prior years (before the malpractice award was completed)? For years he was emphatic that she be kept alive and he would stick by her till death did them part. What he forgot to mention is that he would hasten her death when it was convenient for him to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/46 "2005-04-13T21:55:22Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Because the Schindlers deny she was bulimic. To expand in this the Schindlers likely had to deny her bulimia because they asserted that Michael abused his wife. If they allowed an alternate explanation it would have been harder to place blame at Michael’s feet. > [@](#): > > The examiner’s office has said it would conduct routine examinations and look for any evidence of what might have caused her 1990 collapse. > > The Schindlers have accused Michael Schiavo of abusing his wife, a charge he vehemently denies. > > Over the years, the couple has sought independent investigation of their daughter’s condition and what caused it. Abuse complaints to state social workers were ruled unfounded — although one investigation remains open — and the Pinellas state attorney’s office did not turn up evidence of abuse in one brief probe of the case. > > SOURCE: [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7356531/) ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/47 "2005-04-13T21:56:36Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > If she wasn’t brain dead, then withholding nutrition was euthanasia. She was alive. Removal of food and water killed her. > > Or we could call it murder. > > What is it exactly when someone who is not terminally ill is denied the sustenance to keep her alive? If you can’t be bothered to read all the other threads, at least read _this_ one. Of course she was alive. If someone’s dead, you don’t need to discuss whether they be kept alive. Removal of artificial life support is not illegal. That was done, in accordance with Terri’s wishes, as established by the court. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/48 "2005-04-13T21:58:50Z")
Then it gets down to what the definition of life support is. If food and water are life support - we are all “on it”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/49 "2005-04-13T22:00:52Z")
A feeding tube is life support, not food and water. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/50 "2005-04-13T22:00:58Z")
[QUOTE=wonderwench] > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why didn’t he mention her wishes during the seven prior years (before the malpractice award was completed)? > > For years he was emphatic that she be kept alive and he would stick by her till death did them part. > > What he forgot to mention is that he would hasten her death when it was convenient for him to do so. Because he was hoping that she would recover. For years, he tried everything he could, took her to every specialist he could find-he even became a nurse to try and help her. Eventually, he accepted the doctors’ conclusion that she was not going to GET any better, and if that was the case, she wouldn’t have wanted to live that way. As for his dating, he didn’t start seeing anyone else until after it was concluded that she wasn’t getting better, and HER PARENTS are the ones who encouraged him to do so. For godsakes, it was fifteen years, there was nothing wrong with him moving on after seven years of his wife being in a PVS. Look, maybe he WAS an asshole, but that’s all speculation on our parts. The courts have found conclusive proof that Terri would have wanted the tube removed. I don’t presume to know better than they do, so why do you? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/51 "2005-04-13T22:03:22Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Then it gets down to what the definition of life support is. > > If food and water are life support - we are all “on it”. I’m not getting mine through a tube directly into my stomach. Florida law is clear on the definition of life support AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/52 "2005-04-13T22:03:25Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > If she wasn’t brain dead, then withholding nutrition was euthanasia. She was alive. Removal of food and water killed her. > > Or we could call it murder. > > What is it exactly when someone who is not terminally ill is denied the sustenance to keep her alive? It’s called honoring a patient’s right to refuse medical treatment. If a person doesn’t want a tube in her stomach, the government doesn’t have a right to jam one in there. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/53 "2005-04-13T22:07:19Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Why didn’t he mention her wishes during the seven prior years (before the malpractice award was completed)? > > For years he was emphatic that she be kept alive and he would stick by her till death did them part. > > What he forgot to mention is that he would hasten her death when it was convenient for him to do so. What? At the outset (i.e. shortly after her collapse) the extent of the damage to her was unknown. It took several years before it became blindingly obvious to everyone she was in a persistent vegatative state and would never, _could never_ recover. Her brain did not turn to goo overnight but in the end that is what it was (or more accurately spinal fluid). Eventually Michael realized the obvious…Terri was gone and all that was left was a shell. It is also worth noting that while Michael was not the only one the court relied upon to “remember” that Terri would not want to be kept alive in a persistent vegatative state. Many witnesses were called from friends and family (including the Schindlers). The court did not merely here Michael make the claim and then deem it so. FWIW someone explained here in another post that “brain dead” has a specific connotation that means apart from no noticeable brain function the patient also cannot breathe on their own. People in this state are already legally dead although they may be kept alive to harvest organs (if they are an organ donor) and the death certificate will reflect time of death as when the artificial means of support are removed. There is no legal wrangling over removing life support as the person is already dead in medical and legal terms. Terri was in a persistent vegatative state that while seemingly close to brain dead allowed her to breathe on her own (she still had enough of her brain working to keep autonomic functions working). Her legal status was clearly not the same as that of a brain dead person. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/54 "2005-04-13T22:14:16Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > Then it gets down to what the definition of life support is. > > If food and water are life support - we are all “on it”. Except, Schiavo was not given “food and water”. What she had was a tube implanted surgically in her abdomen, connected to a pump that supplied nutrients and chemicals straight up. I doubt that the solution would even be considered edible to anyone who is able to eat normally. BTW, the device she was on has only been in use since the 1970s, the area WHERE the tube is connected to her body has to be highly monitored, because it’s so open to infection. Any medical professionals here, who could tell me about the substance given to people like Terri Schiavo? Would it be something that a normal individual could consume? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/55 "2005-04-13T22:17:04Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > That our society now sanctions the murder of disabled people based upon the bigotry of “normals” - who pass judgement that the disabled should be put out of their misery because nobody would choose to live like that. That’s so off base it’s not even in the ball park. > [@AA](#): > > **What’s happened to Terri since her collapse?** > > The Second District’s first opinion in this case explained: > > Since 1990, Theresa has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening. > > Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it sufferÍRύXgNe time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. > > In a later opinion in the same case, the Second District further explained: > > Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo’s brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex. Every doctor who examined Terri at any length has concurred. Every court-appointed physician has agreed. All scans and EEGs have supported it. **There is absolutely no doubt that Terri Schiavo was incapable of conscious thought and feeling. Period.** ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/56 "2005-04-13T23:58:51Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > That our society now sanctions the murder of disabled people based upon the bigotry of “normals” - who pass judgement that the disabled should be put out of their misery because nobody would choose to live like that. > > Terri did not leave a Living Will. We would not be having this discussion if her wishes had been documented. We have nothing but Michael’s very suspicious and 7 years too late recollection. > > As a society, we are now erring on the side of death instead of on the side of life. > > Twist and spin it any way you wish - this is what is at bottom. So, why don’t you stop twisting and spinning this to get across your point which defies reality and ignores all of the facts? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/57 "2005-04-14T00:57:22Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > We would not be having this discussion if her wishes had been documented. We have nothing but Michael’s very suspicious and 7 years too late recollection. We have the testimony of three witnesses spanning seven separate conversations. You really need to read the court record, you are betraying your ignorance of the facts as determined by the court every time you post. ---
**Author:** ![widdleytinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@widdleytinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdleytinks)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/58 "2005-04-14T02:30:39Z")
Not that I feel I rank as part of the collective posting “we” on this board, but, wonderwench…if you were at all informed, had you bothered to take the time to inform yourself, you would not be asking the questions you are asking and the good people on this board (many of whom spent days on end supplying information) would not be so obviously wasting their time correcting you. There are Schiavo threads here in GD. There are Schiavo threads in the Pitt. Might I suggest you bother yourself to read them instead of asking others to cover ground that has already been worn dirt thin? regards, widdley ---
**Author:** ![widdleytinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@widdleytinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdleytinks)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/59 "2005-04-14T02:58:09Z")
As I understand it, it will take approximately 6-8 weeks for the full autopsy report (lab samples, etc) to be processed and released. regards, widdley ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917/60 "2005-04-14T03:33:37Z")
Thanks, I thought my request got lost in all the craziness. I sure as hell wasn’t going to jump into it. Heck, by the time the reports become available, if they are ever made PUBLICLY available, few people will still care. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-schiavo-case/298917.md?page=4)