# The Scottish Independence Vote- the aftermath **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927 "2014-09-19T14:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/21 "2014-09-19T18:01:46Z")
Correct me if I am wrong. But did’nt the Yes campaign lose? Or is Pjen from some alternate dimension? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/22 "2014-09-19T18:04:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Correct me if I am wrong. But did’nt the Yes campaign lose? Or is Pjen from some alternate dimension? You are wrong. Pjen is talking about what’s going to happen now. There are some additional devolved powers that will be going to Scotland since they have decided to stay in the union, and that’s what’s under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/23 "2014-09-19T18:51:41Z")
> [@AHarris](#): > > So in other words, you want to see a de facto independent Scotland with the added bonus of someone else to blame when things go wrong? Who would deal with the federal government if it didn’t have the power to enforce treaties when they impinged on the devolved areas (and that would happen a lot because it sounds like you want to give management of everything to the new provinces)? > > I will point out that the situation you describe sounds a lot like the [Articles of Confederation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation) which the Americans quickly decided were a bad idea. Scotland is already de facto independent. What England chooses to do is their decision. How the four countries decide the exercise of their common functions is to be decided. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/24 "2014-09-19T18:58:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland is already de facto independent. :dubious: That’s a mighty, mighty stretch there. Autonomy, maybe. But if you don’t have an independent military or foreign policy, you’re not independent in any sense, de facto or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/25 "2014-09-19T18:59:46Z")
I’m delighted Scotland is remaining in the Union, however, if there is some dysfunctional development in creating a separate English representation, which basically hollows out Westminster, then I’d rather of Scotland cut loose. ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/26 "2014-09-19T20:06:47Z")
So Scotland stayed. When Cameron offered up England’s arse to save his own, I was in a rage. With children coming up to university age I would quite happily stab those Scottish MPs who voted for university fees in the full knowledge that Scottish children were exempt. Bastards! And now they get all the gravy, and still get to vote for shit they dodge. BASTARDS! So good for Scotland, but this has stirred up a lot of bad feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/27 "2014-09-19T20:22:18Z")
> [@lilihob](#): > > So Scotland stayed. > When Cameron offered up England’s arse to save his own, I was in a rage. > With children coming up to university age I would quite happily stab those Scottish MPs who voted for university fees in the full knowledge that Scottish children were exempt. Bastards! > And now they get all the gravy, and still get to vote for shit they dodge. BASTARDS! > So good for Scotland, but this has stirred up a lot of bad feeling. Rage on dude. It’s no-one’s fault but Westminster’s that the West Lothian question hasn’t even been addressed, never mind solved. But blame the smarter parts of the UK all you want if that makes you feel any better! Also, stop voting for shitty parties. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/28 "2014-09-19T20:34:04Z")
I hope for regional devolution in England, but not an English Parliament, or English votes for English laws. I can’t think of anything worse for buggering up the Union. Yes, devolved legislatures would be an additional layer of bureaucracy, and yes, they could row with the national government - but other countries manage, and their Unions are healthy. Also, it would be nice to allow areas outside of the South East to determine their own matters. However I am happy for the devolution to be variable - no need for a federal, equal-powers arrangement; the English devolved assemblies would probably be content with something akin to what Wales has. ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/29 "2014-09-19T21:14:18Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Rage on dude. It’s no-one’s fault but Westminster’s that the West Lothian question hasn’t even been addressed, never mind solved. But blame the smarter parts of the UK all you want if that makes you feel any better! Also, stop voting for shitty parties. Hope this helps. There was me thinking that Westminster was Cameron and his buddies. I thought it was clear I was mainly pissed at them. “Good for Scotland” I didn’t vote for “them”, nobody voted for a Lib dem/Tory cabal. They cooked up that shit without asking us. The Lib dems actually went back on the promise on tuition fees. Dude. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/30 "2014-09-19T21:21:39Z")
> [@lilihob](#): > > There was me thinking that Westminster was Cameron and his buddies. I thought it was clear I was mainly pissed at them. “Good for Scotland” > I didn’t vote for “them”, nobody voted for a Lib dem/Tory cabal. They cooked up that shit without asking us. The Lib dems actually went back on the promise on tuition fees. > Dude. Forgive me for misinterpreting your interjection of “Bastards” at the end of your sentences about Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/31 "2014-09-19T22:10:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland is already de facto independent. And how much of its revenue does it raise? Very little. Independent countries raise their own revenue. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/32 "2014-09-19T22:55:31Z")
Hmmm… I don’t think “de facto independence” means what is happenning in Scotland. What probably HAS happened is there is no returning to statu quo ante – seeing all the promises of so much more devolution and special considerations, it may well be that many will argue that the “No” vote ended up being for something itself different from mere continuance of the heretofore extant union. At least watching the news report from afar it looked towards the end a number of politicians on both sides were arguing less on independence or union per se and more on who would give or take away more welfare state perks. [Mel] _“They can take our lives! But they cannot take, our FREE TUITIIOONN!!!”_ [/Mel] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/33 "2014-09-19T23:01:25Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > And how much of its revenue does it raise? > > Very little. Interested to hear your definition of “very little”. I’m assuming standard English language usage - say, less than 10%? Or are you just making shit up? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/34 "2014-09-19T23:23:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Has the referendum settled the problem of British Democracy, or merely thrown a brighter light on it? I’m impressed by your gracious acknowledgement that the other side won, and that the majority of Scots wish to remain in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/35 "2014-09-19T23:40:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That has been in the background for decades. It was offered to some regions a decade ago but it was rejected by the electorate who did not want another level of government. Well, it’s the sort of solution that seems obvious to a Yank for obvious reasons. We have a federal system here, but it wouldn’t work as well if, say, the Eastern Seaboard were all one state, predominating over the rest. Compare the old German Empire, dominated as it was by great big Prussia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/36 "2014-09-19T23:43:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Has the referendum settled the problem of British Democracy, or merely thrown a brighter light on it? Depends. What exactly **is** “the problem of British Democracy”? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/37 "2014-09-19T23:54:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t want to see England end up like the US, where central government gets nothing done, and driving from one part of the country to another will have completely separate laws. …and state governments with varying levels of competence and corruption. Compared to, say, Louisiana, the Feds are as clean as a whistle. Compared to California 1996-2010, the Feds are an expertly run ship. Just because the Scots want devolution, doesn’t mean the English should. Extra levels of government require extra careful monitoring and the local elites aren’t always up to or up for the task. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/38 "2014-09-20T03:11:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > :dubious: > > That’s a mighty, mighty stretch there. Autonomy, maybe. But if you don’t have an independent military or foreign policy, you’re not independent in any sense, de facto or otherwise. From a citizen point of view, virtually everything that impinges on normal family life is decided in Scotland if the proposals in the Vow are met. All that would be decided in Westminster would be Foreign Policy, Military issues and overall financial planning as well as negotiating UK financial matters. Important issues likely to be transferred involve Welfare and Benefits (except State Pensions for some), Transport, Tax levels, borrowing powers, gun registration, and increased formal inclusion of the Scottish Government in appointments to national bodies such as the BBC and Quangos. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/39 "2014-09-20T03:14:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Depends. What exactly **is** “the problem of British Democracy”? Centralism and the West Lothian question. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/40 "2014-09-20T03:36:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Centralism and the West Lothian question. **[West Lothian question](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question)** As for revenue, doesn’t Scotland produce most of the oil and all of the Scotch Whisky in the UK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927.md?page=3)