# The Scottish Independence Vote- the aftermath **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927 "2014-09-19T14:18:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/101 "2014-09-20T18:04:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **Devolution as put forth by Tony Blair was and is a garbled mess.** For me, as a foreigner, studying English law in the UK in the aftermath of devolution, it was clear that it was a good idea, but it was done with cynical party political purposes. > > Now a great chance. A chance for a clean slate. Get a written constitution, with strong fundamental rights. Create a Federal UK, with a dozen or so regions, with vast autonomy. It’s not that hard, in fact this was pretty much the recipe for what the UK did when it gave self governance to its colonies. > > If it’s done haphazardly it will be a bigger disaster. I think that is looking more and more the case with each passing year. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/102 "2014-09-20T18:27:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I was also educated in the USA through high school and college. Neither experience changes the logic behind my statements about politicians making statements and keeping their word. I also support English laws for English people but this has been avoided for various reasons leading to the current impasse. It seems to me that you have cultivated a profound dislike of the majority opinion in all the places you’ve lived (including as it turns out the Scots). I just think it’s rather strange that your life experiences have somehow led to a combination of hard-left socialism (communism maybe?), Irish republicanism and EU patriotism which informs all your posts. Do you have an interest in non-political Scottish culture by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/103 "2014-09-20T18:33:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: awe so cute. It’s already difficult enough currently and that when the is just the Scottish Parliament. Where Westminster’s laws have precedence and where the Courts can properly decide if a matter was within the Scots competence. Over here, you have a decision to be made at a time when a bill is being introduced. If there is a disagreement, who will decide. The Courts? It’s a political matter. But, hey, these are British not American courts, they don’t shy away from these things if it’s necessary. But, then they become politicised. And subject to criticism. Not to mention , if it goes the UKSC, then Scottish judges could decide. What happens to English votes for English laws then? > > As it is, when they passed the Scotland Act 1998, they ended up accidently creating a right of appeal to UK courts in Scottish criminal cases, which was supposed to not be allowed under the Act of Union. The great British virtues of pragmatism and protocol. If in doubt, they go to he country to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/104 "2014-09-20T18:45:16Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > It seems to me that you have cultivated a profound dislike of the majority opinion in all the places you’ve lived (including as it turns out the Scots). I just think it’s rather strange that your life experiences have somehow led to a combination of hard-left socialism (communism maybe?), Irish republicanism and EU patriotism which informs all your posts. > > Do you have an interest in non-political Scottish culture by the way? Always easier to engage in petty ad homonym comments than actually debate. I am not a hard left socialist- I fought the union movement in its illiberal politics, I give reluctant support to the current coalition in its economics, I castigate Labour for trying to pretend that they did not exacerbate the economic crisis, I voted for Margaret Thatcher in 79 to remove what became Michael Foot socialism. I identify with Methodist Socialism, Christian Democracy, One Nation Conservatism and European Liberalism, despising extremes of left and right. I abhor Irish republicanism as it transpired (not its theory or intention). I don’t know what you mean about EU patriotism- I support European integration and mutual support but that is all. Apart from that you are spot on. And yes, I like Robbie Burns, Fiddle music and the pipes and get goose bumps when I hear Highland Cathedral. Now back to real debate rather than pettiness. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/105 "2014-09-20T19:10:43Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. Supply issues, not specifics. I’m not sure what this refers to > [@](#): > > I agree about Brown’s performance compared with Miliband. Though the Brown was not evident during his leadership period. Quite, rarely was a man less suited to the position he craved. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/106 "2014-09-20T19:18:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Always easier to engage in petty ad homonym comments than actually debate. > > I am not a hard left socialist- I fought the union movement in its illiberal politics, I give reluctant support to the current coalition in its economics, I castigate Labour for trying to pretend that they did not exacerbate the economic crisis, I voted for Margaret Thatcher in 79 to remove what became Michael Foot socialism. I identify with Methodist Socialism, Christian Democracy, One Nation Conservatism and European Liberalism, despising extremes of left and right. I abhor Irish republicanism as it transpired (not its theory or intention). I don’t know what you mean about EU patriotism- I support European integration and mutual support but that is all. > > Apart from that you are spot on. > > And yes, I like Robbie Burns, Fiddle music and the pipes and get goose bumps when I hear Highland Cathedral. > > Now back to real debate rather than pettiness. Well, you may find that the level of debate would improve if some of the above complexity was actually reflected in your posts (since you are far and away the most prolific poster on some of these topics). As it is, they mostly sound heavily influenced by the socialist commentators du jour, or left-wing spam that gets passed around by email (“watch Tommy Sheridan destroy a No voter!!!”) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/107 "2014-09-20T19:57:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > As it is, when they passed the Scotland Act 1998, they ended up accidently creating a right of appeal to UK courts in Scottish criminal cases, which was supposed to not be allowed under the Act of Union. Did they? That gap must have been plugged pdq because the highest criminal court in Scotland remains the High Court of Justiciary. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/108 "2014-09-20T20:02:56Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Well, you may find that the level of debate would improve if some of the above complexity was actually reflected in your posts (since you are far and away the most prolific poster on some of these topics). As it is, they mostly sound heavily influenced by the socialist commentators du jour, or left-wing spam that gets passed around by email (“watch Tommy Sheridan destroy a No voter!!!”) Just shows how wrong wild assumptions can be. It rather reflects poor discretion on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/109 "2014-09-20T20:05:17Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Did they? That gap must have been plugged pdq because the highest criminal court in Scotland remains the High Court of Justiciary. I think that you may both be in moderate error. Certain criminal decisions are appealable to the House of Lords previously, Supreme Court now if they involve Human Rights issues. I don’t think this came from the Scotland Act, but from European Treaty obligations. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/110 "2014-09-21T05:34:56Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Did they? That gap must have been plugged pdq because the highest criminal court in Scotland remains the High Court of Justiciary. Bit complicated, but let me explain. -Act of Union said HCJ would remain the highest court in Scotland for all time. - At common law, a Court could not review the _vires_(meaning competence to enact) of a statute passed by the UK parliament . They could and did however review _vires_ of laws passed under powers given by Statutes. Such as laws passed by Subordinate legislatures. Such as colonial ones. Or devolved bodies. - Under the Scotland Act 1998, Criminal Law and Procedure as well as prosecutions were devolved to Scotland. - At the same time, the UK wide Human Rights Act 1998 was passed. Under it, all devolved bodies and agencies under their control (such as courts and police) must adhere to the right given under the European Convention on Human Rights. Final decisions on whether or not certain action was violative was in the House of Lords and now Supreme Court. - So in practice, while earlier a criminal defendant was out of luck after the judgement of HCJ, nowadays if he can raise a devolution or a Human rights issue, he can hi further to the UKSC. In 2012, that was formalised. For all practical purposes there now is an appeal to the UK Supreme Court in criminal casees. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/111 "2014-09-21T06:33:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Bit complicated, but let me explain. > > -Act of Union said HCJ would remain the highest court in Scotland for all time. > > - At common law, a Court could not review the _vires_(meaning competence to enact) of a statute passed by the UK parliament . They could and did however review _vires_ of laws passed under powers given by Statutes. Such as laws passed by Subordinate legislatures. Such as colonial ones. Or devolved bodies. > > - Under the Scotland Act 1998, Criminal Law and Procedure as well as prosecutions were devolved to Scotland. > > - At the same time, the UK wide Human Rights Act 1998 was passed. Under it, all devolved bodies and agencies under their control (such as courts and police) must adhere to the right given under the European Convention on Human Rights. Final decisions on whether or not certain action was violative was in the House of Lords and now Supreme Court. > > - So in practice, while earlier a criminal defendant was out of luck after the judgement of HCJ, nowadays if he can raise a devolution or a Human rights issue, he can hi further to the UKSC. In 2012, that was formalised. > > For all practical purposes there now is an appeal to the UK Supreme Court in criminal casees. I thought it was the HRA rather than the Scotland Act. I am not sure that the appeal to the Supreme Court is an appeal against judgement or sentence, but an appeal against the fairness of that judgement under the ECHR Convention. If the UK Supreme Court is passing a Judgement of Human Rights issues rather than the technical issue of judgement and sentence, could the Scottish Judiciary contest that by seeking an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. I believe that if such a decision is returned by the European Court of HR it does not overturn the conviction but returns the case to be dealt with by the appropriate court in a manner compliant with the ECHR Convention. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/112 "2014-09-21T08:21:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I thought it was the HRA rather than the Scotland Act. > > I am not sure that the appeal to the Supreme Court is an appeal against judgement or sentence, but an appeal against the fairness of that judgement under the ECHR Convention. If the UK Supreme Court is passing a Judgement of Human Rights issues rather than the technical issue of judgement and sentence, could the Scottish Judiciary contest that by seeking an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. I believe that if such a decision is returned by the European Court of HR it does not overturn the conviction but returns the case to be dealt with by the appropriate court in a manner compliant with the ECHR Convention. No, Scottish courts, like all UK courts, are bound by the Supreme Court judgement. And, the European Courts are not sitting in appeal over Member states Courts, they are only deciding whether an action is within the scope of European law or the Convention as the case may be. As it is, the Scottish judiciary would have no standing to challenge anyway I am not sure what you mean by “appeal against judgement and sentence” versus “appeal against fairness of judgement”. An appeal is not a rehearing. An appellant in filing an appeal must state grounds of appeal, that is why s/he thinks the judgement below in is error and is liable to be reversed/varied /vacated. Currently, for Scottish criminal appeal before the UKSC, an Appellant can only raise grounds which relate to Human Rights and or devolved powers. This is similar for what you need in cases arising from Scottish civil cases and from England and N Ireland, where it is that a case raises an issue of law on a matter of general public importance. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/113 "2014-09-21T12:57:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Always easier to engage in petty ad homonym comments than actually debate. As a poster who has littered this three with _ad hominem_ remarks, (bad puns not withstanding), you would be advised to refrain from this sort of comment. EVERYONE: drop the personal comments that do nothing to promote the discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/114 "2014-09-21T13:02:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > For all practical purposes there now is an appeal to the UK Supreme Court in criminal casees. Thanks AK, for taking the time to explain 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/115 "2014-09-21T13:30:39Z")
So, under Cameron’s English votes for English laws proposal, could a Scot ever again hold the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer or Prime Minister? It seems that it would be impossible to hold either of those offices if you were constitutionally barred from voting in matters affecting 95% of the population. Further, could Scottish MPs sitting in committee still influence English laws, and could Scottish Lords block their passing? My knee jerk reaction to Miliband trying to block this move was that he was just doing it to prevent Labour being eviscerated in England, now I’m not so sure and a real constitutional convention sounds like a good idea… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/116 "2014-09-21T14:24:46Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Rage on dude. It’s no-one’s fault but Westminster’s that the West Lothian question hasn’t even been addressed, never mind solved. But blame the smarter parts of the UK all you want if that makes you feel any better! Also, stop voting for shitty parties. Hope this helps. Exactly. England’s problem is that it elects conservatives. There’s an easy way for the English to deal with that, if it bothers them. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/117 "2014-09-21T16:12:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Exactly. England’s problem is that it elects conservatives. There’s an easy way for the English to deal with that, if it bothers them. Right. Exactly why no one complains about Republicans in the States. You just quietly vote for someone else. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/118 "2014-09-21T17:33:22Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Hopefully. Though a unitary English Parliament would come to challenge Westminster for primacy, as it would represent over 90% of the population of the UK. Just to be picky, it’d be about 85%. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/119 "2014-09-21T17:50:25Z")
I don’t think we are going to get any sense out of the political parties on this issue because they will inevitably favour whichever solution improves the chances for them at the next election. There needs to be an independent body looking at this constitutional question. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927/120 "2014-09-21T19:05:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Right. Exactly why no one complains about Republicans in the States. You just quietly vote for someone else. I don’t complain to the English about American conservatives, because you can’t do diddly about it. I do of course try to persuade my retarded American compatriots to stop voting for them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-independence-vote-the-aftermath/698927.md?page=5)