# The Scottish Parliament Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979 "2011-05-06T16:55:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/1 "2011-05-06T16:55:39Z")
Well, someone else on the Dope might be interested. The results here in Scotland are truly astonishing. The Scottish National Party have exceeded even the most optimistic of forecasts, and have absolutely swept the board. The Liberal Democrat vote collapsed - an indictment on voter disillusionment at their performance in the coalition at Westminster? Or disgust at them getting in to bed with the Tories in the first place? What now for the likelihood of Scottish Independence? I know there’s only a handful of Scottish dopers, but thought our friends across the Atlantic might be interested in such a historic outcome - first ever overall majority in the Scottish Parliament (granted, it hasn’t been going that long). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/2 "2011-05-06T17:28:40Z")
I’m newly in Scotland, and of Scottish ancestry. I’d vote for keeping the Union. Once the oil runs out, Scotland is going to be in big trouble. I would like to see more devolution, though. Specifically, more English devolution. England should have its own assembly and Scottish and Welsh MPs should not vote on purely English matters. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/3 "2011-05-06T17:35:20Z")
Presumably, if Scotland became independent, it would remain a member of the European Union, and might have to make a choice between continuing with its own Scottish pound or joining the Euro zone. Economically, would it be worse off than staying as part of the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/4 "2011-05-07T11:21:11Z")
Interesting times, certainly. I think a lot of people voted SNP for their policies other than independence, and this result isn’t necessarily a vote for Scotland going it alone. It’ll be interesting if/when we do go to a referendum on independence, to see what the campaign would be like, and to see how the SNP would answer the questions around the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/5 "2011-05-07T11:49:23Z")
I am an avowed Unionist, I do not see the merits of England and Scotland becoming separate political entities, which leads to another question, shouldn’t it be a referendum across both countries as to whether they should seperate, rather than just Scotland? ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/6 "2011-05-07T12:56:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I am an avowed Unionist, I do not see the merits of England and Scotland becoming separate political entities, which leads to another question, shouldn’t it be a referendum across both countries as to whether they should seperate, rather than just Scotland? The English blocking Irish devolution didn’t exactly keep the Union intact! This argument always fascinates me. What if the UK voted to leave the EU and the other member states decided we couldn’t? It strikes me that most people who argue the one would be appalled by the other. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/7 "2011-05-07T13:26:40Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > The English blocking Irish devolution didn’t exactly keep the Union intact! > > This argument always fascinates me. What if the UK voted to leave the EU and the other member states decided we couldn’t? It strikes me that most people who argue the one would be appalled by the other. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Agreed. It’s a bizarre argument, in my opinion. Surely it’s up to us? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/8 "2011-05-07T13:37:44Z")
> [@A.Gwilliam](#): > > The English blocking Irish devolution didn’t exactly keep the Union intact! > > This argument always fascinates me. What if the UK voted to leave the EU and the other member states decided we couldn’t? It strikes me that most people who argue the one would be appalled by the other. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Why does my pro Unionist stance have to be tarred with forcing people into the Union? I never said this. It’s just my personal opinion that Scotland and England together is better than them being apart. I’m against splitting the UK into its component parts, we’d revert back to a bunch of rump states on the fringe of Europe, with English and Scottish political voices together we play a bigger part in Europe and on the world stage. And again I’ll state, since both the English and Scottish are part of a political creation called the United Kingdom, it should be a joint referendum on the continuation of this process rather than just a Scottish independence vote. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/9 "2011-05-07T14:13:23Z")
Mate, that’s not how independence works :D. If it were, hardly any countries in history would have become independent from others. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/10 "2011-05-07T14:21:25Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why does my pro Unionist stance have to be tarred with forcing people into the Union? I never said this. But it’s inherent in your suggestion that England should also have a referendum on Scottish independence. England’s population is roughly ten times that of Scotland! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/11 "2011-05-07T14:42:10Z")
The (hypothetical) referendum would be on whether Scotland wants to separate from the UK and form a sovereign nation on its own. Upon the (further hypothetical) positive response from the people of Scotland, the terms of this separation would be negotiated with the UK. This is how the referendum question has played out in Canada - Québec is the entity which is currently a ‘nation within a country’. Twice, the people of Québec have been asked if they would like to separate from the rest of Canada and twice the answer has come back ‘No’ (albeit with the narrowest of margins last time). If the UK does not want Scotland to separate, it is up to the UK to provide the conditions where it is of greater benefit to stay in the union. I would advise against outlining negative consequences to separation - however realistic it may seem to the people saying it, it gets perceived as a threat. In both places, Scotland and Québec, I see much greater benefit in staying within the Union/Confederation but also in both cases a greater respect for the culture over history would have avoided the question in the first place. Just as in a divorce, it only takes one party to want to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/12 "2011-05-07T14:52:04Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > Mate, that’s not how independence works :D. If it were, hardly any countries in history would have become independent from others. It’s also how states become irrelevant and dominated by more powerful countries. > [@](#): > > **A. Gwilliam** > But it’s inherent in your suggestion that England should also have a referendum on Scottish independence. England’s population is roughly ten times that of Scotland! Nope, there should be a referendum on the continuation of the United Kingdom for Scottish and English countries. The act of Union was first done by James Ist, who was Scottish, and then by Westminister, which was English, it’s only fair both countries electorates get a say in the direction of how the Union will play out. On another note, there is the threat of England becoming hypernationalistic due to the ‘loss’ of Scotland from the Union. So we could expect to see very right wing nationalistic governments come about as a result of this dissolution. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/13 "2011-05-07T14:54:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And again I’ll state, since both the English and Scottish are part of a political creation called the United Kingdom, it should be a joint referendum on the continuation of this process rather than just a Scottish independence vote. That’s naive. As others have implied, you could have a referendum in England, but its results would be irrelevant. If Scotland voted to become independent and England voted for Scotland not to become independent, what are you going to do - go to war to maintain the union? It’s been accepted in Westminster for decades that the will of the Scottish people will determine whether Scotland becomes independent. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/14 "2011-05-07T14:56:52Z")
> [@Scheidt-Hoch](#): > > That’s naive. As others have implied, you could have a referendum in England, but its results would be irrelevant. If Scotland voted to become independent and England voted for Scotland not to become independent, what are you going to do - go to war? Who said England would vote for Scotland not to be independent, I was saying the vote should be for the continuation of the United Kingdom as it is currently, which if voted no, would result in Wales Scotland NI and England going their separate ways. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/15 "2011-05-07T15:11:37Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who said England would vote for Scotland not to be independent, I was saying the vote should be for the continuation of the United Kingdom as it is currently, which if voted no, would result in Wales Scotland NI and England going their separate ways. No politician from England who is taken seriously is advocating this idea. ---
**Author:** ![Scougs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scougs/32/3158_2.png) [@Scougs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scougs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/16 "2011-05-07T15:14:22Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who said England would vote for Scotland not to be independent, I was saying the vote should be for the continuation of the United Kingdom as it is currently, which if voted no, would result in Wales Scotland NI and England going their separate ways. Northern Ireland and Wales can do what they like. They have very different histories and became part of the UK in different ways. I see no reason why “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” can’t become “The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland”. If that’s what the majority of the Scottish people want. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/17 "2011-05-07T15:23:46Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Nope, there should be a referendum on the continuation of the United Kingdom for Scottish and English countries. The act of Union was first done by James Ist, who was Scottish, and then by Westminister, which was English, it’s only fair both countries electorates get a say in the direction of how the Union will play out. Oh. Dear. The Act **s** [sic] of Union were not passed in James I’s time; he certainly supported a formal union between the two countries, but failed to win parliamentary support. To cut a long story short, representatives from the two countries met in 1706, and agreed the “Articles of Union”. These were approved in Scotland (with amendments) by an Act of Parliament that received the assent on Jan. 16, 1707. The amended Articles of Union were then approved in England by an Act of Parliament that received the assent on Mar. 6. Both parliaments had to give their assent for the Union to take effect, which happened on May 1. Neither the English nor the Scottish parliaments of the day could be said to be “representative”; neither country had universal adult suffrage, after all! So the basis of your argument is flawed from top to bottom. All that aside, the real problem I have with your proposal is that you have again completely ignored the clearest inherent consequence. If a substantial majority in Scotland vote for independence, but that result is outweighed by a majority in the opposite direction in a parallel referendum in England, then you’re arguing that Scotland must remain within the Union against its will. Which must in turn lead to you deciding either to grant Scottish independence anyway (in which case, why bother with the referendum in England?), or you must use force to maintain the Union. Look at it this way. If one of the two people in a marriage wants a divorce, then ultimately you either have to grant them that divorce, or you must keep them in that marriage against their will. If the people of England voted overwhelmingly for **English** independence in a referendum, should a mere 5 million Scots have a veto over that clear expression of democratic will? ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/18 "2011-05-07T15:27:46Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who said England would vote for Scotland not to be independent, I was saying the vote should be for the continuation of the United Kingdom as it is currently, which if voted no, would result in Wales Scotland NI and England going their separate ways. That’s an even dafter idea! You seem to be fond of the notion of dictatorship by the majority. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/19 "2011-05-07T15:29:06Z")
> [@Scougs](#): > > Northern Ireland and Wales can do what they like. They have very different histories and became part of the UK in different ways. I see no reason why “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” can’t become “The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland”. > > If that’s what the majority of the Scottish people want. As an Englishwoman, I agree with you. It’s up to Scotland what they want to do. But more interesting, will the SNP have the guts to try a referendum on the issue? It’s been their raison d’etre since the start and now’s their chance. They’ll look pretty wimpy if they don’t put their money where their mouth is. Have there been any recent polls on independence amongst the Scottish populace? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979/20 "2011-05-07T15:37:32Z")
I think the majority of English would be glad to get rid of Scotland. Scotland is a significant drain on the U.K. exchequer: more per capita is spent on the Scots than the English. Once the oil runs out, Scotland’s had it. And if Scotland gains independence, will it allow the Shetlands to revert to Norway, taking most of Scotland’s oil and gas with it? Sauce for the goose and all that… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scottish-parliament-election/580979.md?page=2)