# The Scriptures were written by God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159 "2001-03-07T21:08:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/41 "2002-06-14T15:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Nevermind Christianity. Just leap toward Love. He’ll be there. \*\* I guess I’ve always believed that one should do that regardless, and if He exists and is worthy of worship, whoever He is, He’ll be there. If “He” is not there, well, that leap toward Love serves a definite benefit to the leaper anyway. Regardless of anything else, life is just better all around when lived that way. Still, it would be comforting to be able to share a common, perceived spirituality with my extended family. And Lib, thanks for the compliments. I’ve certainly disclosed more about myself than I expected. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/42 "2002-06-14T15:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by il Topo \* > \*\* > If “He” is not there, well, that leap toward Love serves a definite benefit to the leaper anyway. Regardless of anything else, life is just better all around when lived that way._\* Mark 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/43 "2002-06-14T16:26:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Ooh, an open invitation! Naturally. I just did a quick search of some Jewish websites to get a quick jist of what **zev** was talking about. I figured I didn’t have it quite right, so I definatley wanted to illustrate that fact in the hopes that the gaps would get filled in. Still, the responses I’ve seen, combined with looking up the passages **zev** referenced have left me less than convinced on this point. Thank you for the breakdown, **Polycarp**. What you said would seem to indicate that everyone trusted the words of one man who claimed to have spoken to god, as opposed to millions hearing those rules. So far only one person has to have lied. So let’s dig in to the supposed event that _was_ witnessed by millions of people. > [@](#): > > the people appointed Moses as an agent to hear the rest of the Torah (including) the oral tradition from God, because they were unable to withstand the Godly voice. (Ex. 20:16) Let’s look at [that part](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) of the scriptures: > [@](#): > > 16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain [2] trembled violently, and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. **Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.** At the bottom of the page in the linked bible site, there is a very interesting footnote. Apparently this part can also be translated as “and God answered him with thunder”. You’ll admit that hearing loud thunder and attributing it to a god is alot different then specific words out of thin air being heard by millions of people? It’s also a hell of alot more likely. So let’s look at the rest of the passage: > [@](#): > > 20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. Even the priests, who approach the Lord , must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.” > Moses said to the Lord , "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’ So we have what looks like a mountain with some volcanic type activity or giant fire on it. A big storm, and then Moses get’s spoken to through thunder, everyone gets scared and tells him to go up the mountain. He confirms that no one should go where this god is but him. He goes up and then gives all of these rules to everybody and claims god made them up. All that the millions of people saw was thunder and fire on a mountain. The only person who had to lie was Moses. > [@](#): > > The people actually heard the voice of God from the mountain. (Duet. 4). Well, let’s take a look: > [@](#): > > You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain while it blazed with fire to the very heavens, with black clouds and deep darkness. Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. It seems like he is referencing the thunder as a god’s voice again. As I understand this whole thing he got the commandments at the top of the mountain. The “voice” that was heard can be translated as thunder! Anything that had actual meaning was given to Moses outside of the view of anyone else. He took advantage of natural phenomenon, attributed it to god, made sure he had some time alone, and then lied about what happened. This version of events could all have happened without millions of people having to knowingly lie. They believed the thunder was the voice of their god, fine. My little brother used to think it was people bowling in the sky. How about some specific quotes instead of just the passage number? I can’t find where it says that this god spoke the commandments directly to the people, it looks like he thundered about and then went through Moses based on what I’ve read. And finally, **zev** , a statement that can be tested for it’s validity and one that can’t be are very different. To imply they require the same kind of leap of faith is just plain wrong. If someone runs an experiment, describes how it operates and publishes the results, I can follow those directions and see if it works out as predicted. There is nothing in your faith that acurately predicts anything that can be tested. It’s your choice, but the two are not the same at all. While it may not be practical to test everything you hear, believing in an unproven god who can’t be seen, and accepting the principals of physics after you see them launch a big shuttle (built using those principals) into space, for example, just aren’t the same. No matter how much you want them to be. In an attempt to make your belief (which lacks any real evidence) seem just as valid as my acceptance of the principals which do have proof to support them, you do yourself a disservice. We have the internet. We haven’t found souls. We have electricity and lights and refrigerators, but we’ve never heard the voice of a god out of thin air giving us rules. I’m really surprised you consider these things on the same level. It seems kind of silly. Do you honestly feel there is no difference between me accepting that a cars engine works as they say it does and someone accepting the existence of a supernatural being because someone told them it was true? Mind blowing, if your answer is yes. What is the difference between these 2 statements? Would you consider them equally valid and likely? Bigfoot exists. DNA exists. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/44 "2002-06-14T18:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\*. > > Thank you for the breakdown, **Polycarp**. What you said would seem to indicate that everyone trusted the words of one man who claimed to have spoken to god, as opposed to millions hearing those rules. So far only one person has to have lied. So let’s dig in to the supposed event that _was_ witnessed by millions of people.Let’s look at [that part](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) of the scriptures:At the bottom of the page in the linked bible site, there is a very interesting footnote. Apparently this part can also be translated as “and God answered him with thunder”. You’ll admit that hearing loud thunder and attributing it to a god is alot different then specific words out of thin air being heard by millions of people? It’s also a hell of alot more likely. \*\* Sorry, **dalovindj** , but you’re wrong on this. The word used in Ex. 19:19 (which you quoted) is _kol_. _kol_ means voice, not thunder. The same word is used in Gen 27:22. The Hebrew word for thunder is _barak_. The plural of the word (\*b’rakim] is used in the very chapter of Exodus that we are discussing (Ex. 19:16). So, God _did_ answer with a _voice_, not just thunder. If the Author of Exodus meant thunder, He would have used _b’rakim_, not _kol_. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So let’s look at the rest of the passage:So we have what looks like a mountain with some volcanic type activity or giant fire on it. A big storm, and then Moses get’s spoken to through thunder, everyone gets scared and tells him to go up the mountain. He confirms that no one should go where this god is but him. He goes up and then gives all of these rules to everybody and claims god made them up. All that the millions of people saw was thunder and fire on a mountain. The only person who had to lie was Moses. Well, let’s take a look:It seems like he is referencing the thunder as a god’s voice again. As I understand this whole thing he got the commandments at the top of the mountain. The “voice” that was heard can be translated as thunder! \*\* No, it cannot. Your translation is faulty. _kol_ means voice. _barak_ (or _b’rakim_, the plural) means thunder! If thunder was meant, the word _b’rakim_ would have been used. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Anything that had actual meaning was given to Moses outside of the view of anyone else. He took advantage of natural phenomenon, attributed it to god, made sure he had some time alone, and then lied about what happened. This version of events could all have happened without millions of people having to knowingly lie. They believed the thunder was the voice of their god, fine. My little brother used to think it was people bowling in the sky. > > How about some specific quotes instead of just the passage number? I can’t find where it says that this god spoke the commandments directly to the people, it looks like he thundered about and then went through Moses based on what I’ve read. \*\* Well, let’s see, I gave you Exodus 20. There is Duet 4:12-13 > [@](#): > > And HaShem spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire; ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only a voice. > > And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the ten words; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone. The words _kol devarim_ (the sound of words) are clearly used. Unless, of course, you think Moses invented a PA system with quadraphonic sound on the top of Mount Sinai. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And finally, **zev** , a statement that can be tested for it’s validity and one that can’t be are very different. To imply they require the same kind of leap of faith is just plain wrong. If someone runs an experiment, describes how it operates and publishes the results, I can follow those directions and see if it works out as predicted. There is nothing in your faith that acurately predicts anything that can be tested. It’s your choice, but the two are not the same at all. While it may not be practical to test everything you hear, believing in an unproven god who can’t be seen, and accepting the principals of physics after you see them launch a big shuttle (built using those principals) into space, for example, just aren’t the same. No matter how much you want them to be. In an attempt to make your belief (which lacks any real evidence) seem just as valid as my acceptance of the principals which do have proof to support them, you do yourself a disservice. We have the internet. We haven’t found souls. We have electricity and lights and refrigerators, but we’ve never heard the voice of a god out of thin air giving us rules. I’m really surprised you consider these things on the same level. It seems kind of silly. \*\* Sure we did. You just weren’t in the right place at the right time. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*\* > Do you honestly feel there is no difference between me accepting that a cars engine works as they say it does and someone accepting the existence of a supernatural being because someone told them it was true? Mind blowing, if your answer is yes. \*\* No, it’s not the same. I accept that a car engine works because I have seen one work. I know that when I turn the key in my ignition, my car will start (I hope!). Leaving metaphysics aside, this is empirical proof. As I stated earlier, I don’t have empirical proof that God exists, let alone that everything the Bible says is true. I accept it on faith. I don’t ask you to. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What is the difference between these 2 statements? Would you consider them equally valid and likely? > > Bigfoot exists. > DNA exists. \*\* The first is an unproven hypothesis. The second is fact. Do I consider them equally valid? Of course not. Does that mean that I am admitting that God doesn’t exist? No. It simply means that I admit to you that I have no empirical proof. I cannot observe God the same way I can observe DNA or car engines. But, however, I have a tradition handed down thousands of years, from my ancestors to me, that God exists. I have no such tradition for Bigfoot. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![RedNaxela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@RedNaxela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedNaxela)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/45 "2002-06-14T18:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > **At the bottom of the page in the linked bible site, there is a very interesting footnote. Apparently this part can also be translated as “and God answered him with thunder”.** Interesting… I seem to recall someone who recently [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=118342#post2158157), dismissing an alternate interpretation of a Biblical verse: > [@](#): > > **Interpretation? Yeah, I suppose if you wanted to you could say that it really means that god is a giant frog, but that damn sure aint what it says.** Back to the issue at hand. You write: > [@](#): > > **As I understand this whole thing he got the commandments at the top of the mountain.** … but that understanding is contradicted by Exodus 19:25-20:1, where Moses descends from the mountain and _then_ “G-d spoke all of these words…” (The command in 19:24 for Moses to ascend the mountain together with Aaron means that they should come up _after_ the theophany was over - very likely in order to head off claims that it was Moses, not G-d, speaking from the mountaintop.) As for the passage from Deut. 4: Granted that the reference to “a voice” at the end of verse 12 might refer to the sound of thunder; but how would you explain the phrase “the sound of words”? Your little brother might have imagined thunder to be the sound of bowling, but that’s a long way from hearing actual words (let alone the 172 words that make up the Hebrew text of the Ten Commandments). And it’s not as though they’d never seen a lightning storm before and would have gone to pieces because of one. > [@](#): > > **How about some specific quotes instead of just the passage number? I can’t find where it says that this god spoke the commandments directly to the people, it looks like he thundered about and then went through Moses based on what I’ve read.** Well, there are explicit verses such as Ex. 20:1: “And G-d spoke all these words, saying…” Also, try this one on for size (Deut. 5:23-27 in the English versions, 5:20-24 in the Hebrew): > [@](#): > > **When you heard the voice out of the darkness, with the mountain burning in flames, your tribal leaders and elders approached me. > You said, 'It is true that God our Lord has showed us His glory and greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the fire. Today we have seen that when God speaks to man, he can still survive. > 'But now, why should we die? Why should this great fire consume us? If we hear the voice of God our Lord any more, we will die! > 'What mortal has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire as we did and has survived? > 'You approach God our Lord, and listen to all He says. You can transmit to us whatever God our Lord tells you, and when we hear it, we will do it.'** Again, sure, it might be possible to explain all of the references to the “voice” as nothing more than thunder; but how would this explain why the leaders and elders were so frightened of it, and why they considered it such a novel thing for human beings to survive hearing it? (Besides which, they explicitly refer to “the voice… speaking,” which - as above - is hardly likely if it was just thunder.) > [@](#): > > **And finally, zev, a statement that can be tested for it’s validity and one that can’t be are very different… There is nothing in your faith that acurately predicts anything that can be tested.** I can’t speak for **zev** , but I think he’d grant this point - which is why he said: > [@](#): > > **Well, yes, in the end, it does come down to faith. I never denied that. I never told you that I had empirical proof that God existed, I simply told you that to my reasoning (and yes, I have given the matter thought, I did not simply follow like a sheep), it is more likely that God exists and that the Torah is true.** In other words, no one is claiming that the basis of our faith is scientifically provable; but neither is it contrary to logic. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/46 "2002-06-14T19:01:13Z")
**zev** , before we continue, will you please address the footnote numbered 3 on [this](http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on#footnote_188265317_3) page. Why do they seem to feel that the phrase **“_and the voice of God answered him._”** can also be translated as "and God answered him with thunder ". Thanks. I never learned any languages other than English (not for lack of trying - I failed Latin, French, & Spanish and alot of other things that weren’t drama classes). Your knowledge, (seemingly gained through a good deal of study) is appreciated and respected. I think your conclusions are faulty, but I appreciate the time you have put in and can see that I have a bit to learn in this department. I am greatful any time someone can teach me something I did not know, but did become curious about. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![RedNaxela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ad7895/32.png) [@RedNaxela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedNaxela)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/47 "2002-06-14T19:04:48Z")
Hmmm… must remember to preview next time and see if I’m repeating what someone else said - especially when that “someone else” is the person who was being addressed… A slight correction, **zev** : _barak_ is actually the Hebrew word for lightning. The specific Hebrew word for thunder is _ra’am_, as in Isaiah 29:6. As for _kol_, it is used interchangeably for any kind of sound, including a voice (as in the verse from Genesis you cited), the blast of a horn (as in the first half of Exod. 19:19), or thunder (ibid. 9:22). Nevertheless, given the reference to “the sound of words” in Deut. 4:12, the meaning of _kol_ at the end of Exod. 19:19 is clearly “voice.” ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/48 "2002-06-14T19:12:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting… I seem to recall someone who recently said, dismissing an alternate interpretation of a Biblical verse: **RedNaxela** , there is a difference between translation and interpretation. Look it up. I’ll address your other arguments pending what I expect will be a swift clear up of the translation issue. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/49 "2002-06-14T19:15:36Z")
Or maybe not so swift. Preview for responses is a good idea. So some debate on the translations of the words here. Seems like a fairly important piece of this issue. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/50 "2002-06-14T19:22:21Z")
:smack: Yeah, I goofed. Thanks for catching that **RedNaxela**. However, as **RedNaxela** pointed out, from the context and from the quote in Duet 4:12, it’s still clearly words. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-scriptures-were-written-by-god/57159/51 "2002-06-14T19:28:13Z")
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