# The Second Amendment does not apply to illegal immigrants. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308 "2012-05-08T19:05:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/41 "2012-05-09T11:27:44Z")
All the amendments apply to everybody, whether citizens or visitors here legally or otherwise. With regard to the Second, I believe the Republican Supreme Court blew it big time in Heller and that the right to bear arms only applies to members of well-regulated militias, i.e. the National Guard. Being that the the Supremes can’t read the amendment for what it means, that perverted “right” extends to those here illegally as much as a native. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/42 "2012-05-09T11:42:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > From there the Court observed that “The bottom line is that crime control and public safety are indisputably ‘important’ interests,” and that “Congress may have concluded that illegal aliens, **already in probable present violation of the law** , simply do not receive the full panoply of constitutional rights enjoyed by law-abiding citizens. Or that such individuals, largely outside the formal system of registration, employment, and identification, are harder to trace and more likely to assume a false identity. Or Congress may have concluded that those who show a willingness to defy our law are candidates for further misfeasance or at least a group that ought not be armed when authorities seek them. It is surely a generalization to suggest, as courts do . . . that unlawfully present aliens, as a group, pose a greater threat to public safety—but general laws deal in generalities.” I’m curious about the bolded passage and in particular about the word “probable”. Who gets to decide whether someone is “probably” in violation of the law? What are the criteria? What is the burden of proof? What is the defense against it? Surely the accused has the right to be convicted of violating the law (in this case, being shown to be in the country illegally) before further action is taken, and if that test is met, surely the logical next step is to deport them rather than worrying about their Constitutional rights? What am I missing here? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/43 "2012-05-09T12:19:14Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m curious about the bolded passage and in particular about the word “probable”. Who gets to decide whether someone is “probably” in violation of the law? What are the criteria? What is the burden of proof? What is the defense against it? Surely the accused has the right to be convicted of violating the law (in this case, being shown to be in the country illegally) before further action is taken, and if that test is met, surely the logical next step is to deport them rather than worrying about their Constitutional rights? > > What am I missing here? I don’t really know, since the law being challenged applies to one who is “illegally or unlawfully in the United States,” which must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. “In present violation of the law” is an awkward phrase, since violations of the law occur at a discrete time: when you kill the guy, when you steal the item, or when you cross the border. Perhaps the Court had in mind the concept of an undocumented person when writing that sentence, about whom we can guess that the person is likely unlawfully present if they are without documents, but we can’t say that with certainty because of the various bases for lawful presence without documents (such as those entitled to asylum). But since the statute only applies to those who are not “lawfully” in the U.S., this category could still carry guns under the statute, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/44 "2012-05-09T13:27:03Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > All the amendments apply to everybody, whether citizens or visitors here legally or otherwise. Not true. Not even all citizens retain the right to own guns or to vote (that is, convicted felons don’t, for example), and so it’s just a question of degree. If the court finds that being an illegal immigrant doesn’t rise to that level under current law, Congress just might oblige by raising the stakes and making the infraction of being here illegally a felony. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/45 "2012-05-09T14:32:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > “In present violation of the law” is an awkward phrase, since violations of the law occur at a discrete time: when you kill the guy, when you steal the item, or when you cross the border. How about breaking the speed limit or drunk driving? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/46 "2012-05-09T14:35:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not true. Not even all citizens retain the right to own guns or to vote (that is, convicted felons don’t, for example), and so it’s just a question of degree. If the court finds that being an illegal immigrant doesn’t rise to that level under current law, Congress just might oblige by raising the stakes and making the infraction of being here illegally a felony. If you just happen to be here and aren’t yet arrested, much less convicted of anything, then you aren’t a convicted felon. So when you cross that border, you can pack heat. Get arrested and convicted of being here illegally, then you may not have the “right” to carry guns, depending on the severity of what you’re convicted of. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/47 "2012-05-09T14:38:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > All the amendments apply to everybody, whether citizens or visitors here legally or otherwise. With regard to the Second, I believe the Republican Supreme Court blew it big time in Heller and that the right to bear arms only applies to members of well-regulated militias, i.e. the National Guard. Being that the the Supremes can’t read the amendment for what it means, that perverted “right” extends to those here illegally as much as a native. And by that logic, to those in prison, too? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/48 "2012-05-09T14:48:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If you just happen to be here and aren’t yet arrested, much less convicted of anything, then you aren’t a convicted felon. True, but if it is made a felony, or otherwise deemed appropriate for disallowing gun ownership, then Congress (or, at least, the states) can require proof of citizenship or a valid visa as part of background checks for gun purchases. I don’t think it’s too difficult to make gun ownership by illegal immigrants against the law. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/49 "2012-05-09T14:53:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > True, but if it is made a felony, or otherwise deemed appropriate for disallowing gun ownership, then Congress (or, at least, the states) can require proof of citizenship or a valid visa as part of background checks for gun purchases. > > I don’t think it’s too difficult to make gun ownership by illegal immigrants against the law. Can Congress make proof of citizenship or a valid visa a requirement of attending church? For attending a political rally? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/50 "2012-05-09T14:58:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Can Congress make proof of citizenship or a valid visa a requirement of attending church? For attending a political rally? No. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/51 "2012-05-09T16:08:14Z")
For the life of me, I can’t figure out the obsession of the left for protecting illegal aliens. We have a problem with our immigration policies and their enforcement, so let’s fix them rather than trying to figure out how to make sure that illegal aliens can get driver’s licenses, or carry guns, or whatever. It’s not as though the Unitet States is alone in requiring a visa to live and work within its borders; I can’t just up and decide I want to move to France or Italy and get a job. Nor is our immigration policy racist: the vast majority of legal immigrants to the US are from places other than Europe. If we need to increase our quotas, or implement a guest worker program, let’s just do that. How can you tell someone they need to get a permit to build an addition to their house, but it’s OK for other people to just ignore other laws? To get back to the OP, the proper response to an illegal alien with a gun is to deport them. Not because they have a gun, but because they are here illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/52 "2012-05-09T16:19:31Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > For the life of me, I can’t figure out the obsession of the left for protecting illegal aliens. I am equally puzzled at why the right is obsessed with protecting employers who hire illegal aliens. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/53 "2012-05-09T16:36:34Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > For the life of me, I can’t figure out the obsession of the left for protecting illegal aliens. Probably has something to do with international solidarity. Either that or the classically liberal concept that labour ought to be highly mobile. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/54 "2012-05-09T16:39:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am equally puzzled at why the right is obsessed with protecting employers who hire illegal aliens. You are confusing the people **with power /money** in the right with the average person in the right. Go around and ask the average person who self identifies as righty/republican if they support protecting employers of illegal aliens. I doubt you’ll get many thay say yes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/55 "2012-05-09T17:04:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am equally puzzled at why the right is obsessed with protecting employers who hire illegal aliens. Are you often puzzled by straw, or just in this particular case? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/56 "2012-05-09T17:06:50Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > To get back to the OP, the proper response to an illegal alien with a gun is to deport them. Not because they have a gun, but because they are here illegally. The problem is that forcibly deporting tens of millions of people is a logistic nightmare, and would crash the economy. Also remember that there are significant numbers of people who are waiting in the US technically illegally while their amnesty petitions are being reviewed. So either we have to give amnesty to those who are here already and create a more realistic immigration policy or we have to come up with a way to deal with having a population of people here illegally. If they are going to be here, having them drive with valid drivers licenses and having their children in school rather than on the streets is better for society. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/57 "2012-05-09T17:33:14Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > For the life of me, I can’t figure out the obsession of the left for protecting illegal aliens. I can’t figure out why the right is obsessed with persecuting citizens of other nations who happen to be here without following legal procedures. Gotta make sure they speak our language, heaven forbid they want to use our health care system, oh my God they’re in our schools, holy shit they want guns, too? They want to turn a century of legal precedence on its head and insist that being born here isn’t sufficient for citizenship. Enough already. They’re people. They’re doing jobs you probably won’t do at the wage they’re getting. They pay sales tax just like the rest of us. They may even put in SS tax with no hope of getting benefits. Live and let live. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/58 "2012-05-09T17:35:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I can’t figure out why the right is obsessed with persecuting citizens of other nations who happen to be here without following legal procedures. Gotta make sure they speak our language, heaven forbid they want to use our health care system, oh my God they’re in our schools, holy shit they want guns, too? They want to turn a century of legal precedence on its head and insist that being born here isn’t sufficient for citizenship. Enough already. They’re people. They’re doing jobs you probably won’t do at the wage they’re getting. They pay sales tax just like the rest of us. They may even put in SS tax with no hope of getting benefits. Live and let live. Is it your position that we should have completely open borders? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/59 "2012-05-09T17:43:12Z")
If the illegal alien knows he is here illegally, could he even theoretically carry a firearm? Ignorance of the law isn’t a valid defense etc… I think not, if the court finds him here illegally then he would/could not only be deported but also charged with a felony (most gun possession charges are in Texas)? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308/60 "2012-05-09T18:04:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I can’t figure out why the right is obsessed with persecuting citizens of other nations who happen to be here without following legal procedures. Because contrary to what you may think, the law they are violating is rather important. I’m strongly in favour of making it easier for law-abiding, disease-free migrants to come to Australia or the United States, but anyone who is willing to sneak in should forfeit that opportunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-amendment-does-not-apply-to-illegal-immigrants/621308.md?page=4)