# The Second Beast of Revelation 13 - Abu Mazen **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669 "2005-08-26T02:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/81 "2005-08-29T16:07:58Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, there’s that bit in Josephus’s Antiquities, about the killing of James, brother of Jesus. Isn’t that considered authentic? It’s mostly accepted as authentic but there is still some dispute as to whether the the phrase _tou legomenou Christou_ (“the one called [or so-called] Christ”) is an interpolation. Either way, like **Friar** said, Josephus doesn’t tell us _why_ James was killed and it may or may not have had anything to do with Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/82 "2005-08-29T16:10:00Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > the Beast of Revelation (AKA the Emperor Domitian). They are completely different entities. Believing in a pre-70 AD dating of Revelation (Westcott & Hort, John A.T. Robertson, Kenneth Gentry “Before Jerusalem Fell”- available on the Net), I lean to Nero specifically, the Roman Emperors in general, with the Second Beast being either the High Priesthood or it & the Herodian dynasty together. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/83 "2005-08-29T16:19:43Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > About what? Homosexuality or that S&G were destroyed for that? Either. > [@](#): > > RE the former, Paul in Romans 1 & I Corinthians 6- may be pagan cultic practices or it may be just gay sex that he condemns- Church Tradition accepted by Catholic & Orthodox & Reformed Churches have held the latter until recent generations. Paul does not really condemn homosexuality in this passage. He says that God turned people gay as a punishment for worshipping idols. Some might not find that to be much of a punishment at all. It’s not really a judgement on homosexuality in general, it’s an anecdote about what happened to one group of idol worshippers. They began to behave in uncharacteristic ways (the Greek word which I translate as “uncharacteristic” is often translated as “unnnatural.”) > [@](#): > > AS to S&G being destroyed for that- I agree with you. But it wasn’t just “inhospitality”- it was gang-rape, which I think we all might agree that a society which allows that deserves the ol’ fire & brimstone treatment. But everything would have been ok if they had gang raped Lot’s daughter? Fortunately, we can actually consult the OT itself on this question: ( **Ezek. 16:49-50** ) _Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen._ > [@](#): > > RE Leviticus 18- does it forbid incest or just Canaanite-cult-related incest? No idea. But even if it isn’t a cultic prohibition, that doesn’t mean the man-on-man part isn’t a cultic prohibition. > [@](#): > > And Jesus doesn’t mention gay sex because it wasn’t a debatable issue to his Jewish audience- he doesn’t condemn incest or bestiality either (not to equate them, but he doesn’t) because there was a clear Jewish consensus. Cite that there was a clear Jewish consensus? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/84 "2005-08-29T16:21:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s mostly accepted as authentic but there is still some dispute as to whether the the phrase _tou legomenou Christou_ (“the one called [or so-called] Christ”) is an interpolation. Either way, like **Friar** said, Josephus doesn’t tell us _why_ James was killed and it may or may not have had anything to do with Jesus. Let me clarify that I do believe the Hegissipus account- here are the details that I recall- James son of Joseph, brother of Jesus, presided over the Jerusalem Church but nowhere in Acts do we see him engaged in public evangelism. Heg tells us that James was esteemed by the people & (this is unlikely) was considered a priest with some access to the Temple. When the Roman governor died around 62 AD, the High Priest Ananus basically filled the power vacuum in the city. James came out publically evangelizing. Ananus (btw, part of the Annas-Caiaphas family) had James taken to the Temple pinnacle & challenged as to the status of Jesus. James proclaimed JC as the Son of Man sitting at God’s Right Hand. Ananus ordered him thrown from the pinnacle & stones, which concluded with someone taking a fuller’s club & bashing his head in till he was dead. Some prominent citizens objected to this & Ananus was deposed upon the new Roman governor’s arrival. Still, some Christian interpolations of Josephus & other ancient Christian commentators regarded that as a factor in the chain of events which led to the civil war and the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. I think James’s murder by the High Priest on the Temple grounds was the Abomination of Desolation warned of by Jesus as the sign for the Church to flee the city & leave it to Judgement. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/85 "2005-08-29T16:50:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Either. > Cite that there was a clear Jewish consensus? Just did a google on “Judaism” & “homosexuality”. Even the pro-gay articles noted that Judaic tradition was totally opposed to it. Only recently was there any question in more liberal Jewish circles. I hardly think 30 CE Judaic thought was more progressive than any time until this century. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/86 "2005-08-29T17:51:53Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Just did a google on “Judaism” & “homosexuality”. Even the pro-gay articles noted that Judaic tradition was totally opposed to it. Only recently was there any question in more liberal Jewish circles. I hardly think 30 CE Judaic thought was more progressive than any time until this century. While the majority of Jewish tradition strongly condemns homosexuality, it also holds that Sodom and Gammorah were destoyed for being without hospitality and compassion. There are ancient Jewish folktales describing just how selfish and uncaring the people of those cities were. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/87 "2005-08-29T17:55:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Just did a google on “Judaism” & “homosexuality”. Even the pro-gay articles noted that Judaic tradition was totally opposed to it. Only recently was there any question in more liberal Jewish circles. It would be wrong to describe some of the pro-gay Jewish groups as liberal. Some of them are hardline Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/88 "2005-08-29T18:16:22Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > It would be wrong to describe some of the pro-gay Jewish groups as liberal. Some of them are hardline Orthodox. Which ones? Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any Orthodox gay rigts groups. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/89 "2005-08-29T18:41:00Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Which ones? Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any Orthodox gay rigts groups. Oh, there are pro-gay Orthodox groups just like there are pro-gay fund’ist/evangelical/charismatic Christian groups. But they are far from representative of either Judaic Orthodoxy or f/e/c C’ntiy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/90 "2005-08-29T19:25:34Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > You were able to identify the Bible Character as Jesus from that list of names itles \descriptions, yet none of them uses His Name directly. This indicates that the Bible’s use of various symbols, names, and descriptions for the same entity leads to clarity and not confusion, which was your original premise. No, I was not able to identify all of those names as referring to Jesus. I assumed (mistakenly?) that some were names or epithets of God from the Old Testament. Not very clear. (Of course, I am taking it as an axiom too obvious to warrant discussion that no passage from the Old Testament could possibly be a specific reference to Jesus.) ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/91 "2005-08-29T20:31:43Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > The type of love in the case of John was “agape” . . . > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😃 My mind reels with obscene puns . . . say, what ever happened to Goatse? \ I love you guys! Greek literature and pornographic vulgarity! Where else but the Dope? ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/92 "2005-08-30T01:11:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’ve never quite understood this particular argument for the accuracy of scripture or Christian belief. People died for Christianity and the Bible…so? People have died and been martyred for just about every belief system ever created. If we follow this logic (that people dying for a belief = belief’s accuracy and truth) then the suicide bombers should witness the accuracy and truth of extremist Islam and hatred for Israel, right? When are you converting, **Bible Man**? You must have read something into my post. Being willing to give one’s life for a cause\country\religion etc, testifies only to the fact that a person believes it to be true (if truly unforced to do so). Kamikazes, suicide bombers, Jonestowners, David Koresh, Christian martyrs, all give their personal testimony that they believe a particular cause is worthy of the highest price. Their sacrifices should cause us to examine their belief system closely to see if they made the right choice. Not all will stand up to examination, but the particular Christian martyrs who gave their lives to put Bibles in our hands deserve particular notice because they lost their livelihoods, forced to go underground, and when caught, endured brutal torture before death (no instant airplane deaths). Their selflessness makes us conclude that they were completely convinced beyond any doubt that they were dying for something they considered of the highest value, and they gave up all they had to try to share it with others. If one takes their sacrifice seriously and examines the Book and its flawless integrity from cover to cover, without any prejudgement, it is hard not to come to the same conclusion. It is a book of supernatural events, with a history of 100% accuracy in all its prophetic predictions from the past, and ample evidence that the yet unfulfilled events will most certainly also take place. Which, by the way, is the original topic of this thread. But I suppose we have to talk about something while The Watchman of Ephraim has apparently left his post, or fallen asleep, or something. -The other point in my post was that the particular works you mentioned are so flawed and spurious on their face that no one would possibly make a sacrifice to keep them around, it’s hardly worth the effort to get up and burn them, much less spend the time passing them out to someone. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/93 "2005-08-30T01:32:26Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > but the particular Christian martyrs who gave their lives to put Bibles in our hands deserve particular notice because they lost their livelihoods, forced to go underground, and when caught, endured brutal torture before death (no instant airplane deaths). Who are you talking about? What are their names? What is the evidence for their suffering and martyrdom? What was their evidence for their own beliefs? What about all the other people who have gone underground, been tortured and been killed for their beliefs without recanting. Jewish victims of the Inquistion, for one example, early heretical Christians for another. Joseph Smith was martyred for his beliefs and did not recant them. What does any of it prove? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/94 "2005-08-30T02:27:06Z")
**Bible Man** Your post contains so many unproven statements, that it should be the topic of another thread. > [@Bible man](#): > > You must have read something into my post. Being willing to give one’s life for a cause\country\religion etc, testifies only to the fact that a person believes it to be true (if truly unforced to do so). Kamikazes, suicide bombers, Jonestowners, David Koresh, Christian martyrs, all give their personal testimony that they believe a particular cause is worthy of the highest price. True enough. > [@](#): > > Their sacrifices should cause us to examine their belief system closely to see if they made the right choice. Not all will stand up to examination, but the particular Christian martyrs who gave their lives to put Bibles in our hands deserve particular notice because they lost their livelihoods, forced to go underground, and when caught, endured brutal torture before death (no instant airplane deaths). Their selflessness makes us conclude that they were completely convinced beyond any doubt that they were dying for something they considered of the highest value, and they gave up all they had to try to share it with others. And Jews aplenty haven’t gone underground, and been tortured to death? Isn’t China currently busy prosecuting all members of the Falun Gong sect, forcing them to go underground and punishing them in horrible ways when caught? Didn’t the Inquisition due the same to Manicheans, Cathars etc? > [@](#): > > If one takes their sacrifice seriously and examines the Book and its flawless integrity from cover to cover, without any prejudgement, it is hard not to come to the same conclusion. What flawless integrity? > [@](#): > > It is a book of supernatural events, with a history of 100% accuracy in all its prophetic predictions from the past, and ample evidence that the yet unfulfilled events will most certainly also take place. People say the same thing about the prophecies of Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/95 "2005-08-30T06:26:03Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Just tell me when Sephiroth starts playing pool with the solar system. Until he does, _you_ can play pool with the solar system [here (send a rogue star through the solar system)](http://janus.astro.umd.edu/orbits/nbdy/rstar.html) and [here (hit your favorite planet with an asteroid or comet)](http://janus.astro.umd.edu/astro/impact/). ---
**Author:** ![Bible\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bible\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bible_man)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/96 "2005-08-30T13:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] " > [@](#): > > The judgement Sodom and Gomorrah was for inhospitality, not homosexuality," It’s hard to disagree with you that demanding unwilling, homosexual sex from visitors to a town fits into the category of “inhospitality”. Maybe it will come up at Saddam’s trial also. “Mr. Hussein, you are charged with the torture, rape and murder of the Iraqi people and several of your neighboring countries, how do you plead?” “I would like to plead guilty with an explanation, and I just want to pay the fine and go home. I’d rather plead guilty for my inhospitality and just be done with this whole thing.” By the way Cynic, where is Roseville located anyway? (Just so people will know where not to stop for the night.) > [@](#): > > “and neither Jesus nor anyomne else in the NT had anything to say about it” Jesus constantly endorsed and upheld all the writings of the Old Testament by teaching from them, quoting them, obeying them, and counseling everyone else to do the same, this would include all the scriptures that condemn homosexuality (Jn5:46-47, Matt5:17-19). Also, Paul condemns the practice in 1Cor6:9 saying homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom of God. It’s also condemned in 1Tim1:9-10, Rom1:26-27, and Jude1:7. " > [@](#): > > Do you eat pork? Do you wear cotton blends? Isn’t there supposed to be a new covenant now?" The New Covenant is based on Christ’s personal fulfillment of the requirements of the Law, the commandments of God are never set aside in the process. Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law and the prophets but to complete and fulfill them.” (Matt5:17) None of God’s commandments will ever pass away including the prohibitions against sexual perversions (homosexuality, adultery, beastiality, incest, cross-dressing, etc) Only the rituals of the law concerning feasts, ceremonial washings, sacrifice of lambs, dietary laws etc, passed away with the arrival of and the sacrifice of Christ. Their prophetic, preparatory function was fulfilled. This was signified by the tearing of the temple veil at the death of Christ. " > [@](#): > > By the way, you’re completely wrong in your assertion that “all their writings” condemn homosexuality. There is only one verse which _appears_ to address homosexuality (Leviticus) and it is debatable whether that verse really condemns all homosexuality _per se_ or whether it is only a condemnation of certain Canaanite cultic temple practices." -The following verses deal directly with homosexuality (and its various forms ie, both Caananite and Jewish cult sodomites) throughout the Bible. Homosexuality is also included in countless other verses which come under the heading of “sins of the flesh”, “vile practices”, or “lusts of the flesh” etc Gen19:1-29 Lev18:22 Lev20:13 Rom1:26-27 1Cor6:9 1Tim1:9-10 Deut23:17 1Ki14:24 Judges19:14-29 2Kings23:7 1Kings14:24 1Kings15:12 1Kings22:46 Jude1:7 Rev21:8 Ezekiel16:49-50 (this verse also gives us the underlying societal excesses which led to the “abominable offenses” of Sodom. Rampant homosexuality is one of the symptoms of a sick society.) > [@](#): > > “People die for all kinds of religious beliefs all the time [cough…9/11…cough]. So what?” -When people willingly give their lives for a cause\religion\belief it is because they believe it is true. Their commitment can affect you no matter if it is right or wrong, and examining their motives, goals, and beliefs is prudent even if you don’t plan to join them. The martyrs who died to give us the Bible died for the most selfless and purest of motives: their belief was that the Bible was God’s Word and that it would change others lives for the better. " > [@](#): > > Incidentally, there isn’t a shred of historical evidence that direct followers of Jesus were martyred for their beliefs or even that a single apostle ever claimed to ahve witnessed Jesus perform a miracle or come back from the dead." This false statement confirms my suspicion that you have never actually opened the Bible and read it, or any secular work of the time period for that matter. Further, since the Bible is authored by God Himself, it is actually the most reliable and complete historical source book on earth. And its dates, places, and events have always been verified by archaeoloical digs and by reputable historians (perhaps not the ones you’ve assembled). It dovetails with secular historians like Josephus, who mentions Christ, John the Baptist, James (the brother of Jesus) and others. The Bible itself only names a few of the apostles and disciples who were martyred for their testimony for Christ but all the apostles and countless others (including the guards at the tomb) saw Christ’s miracles and ressurection. In one verse, Paul reports that Christ was seen after His ressurection by over 500 disciples at one time (1Cor15:6). Dozens of miracles are recorded, having been done by Christ and his followers, there were so many they simply stopped recording them: “And there are also many other things which Jesus did. If they should be all recorded one by one in detail, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written”. ( Jn21:25) Your post did present one really good argument, it serves as one of the best arguments I’ve seen for having some posting standards that might put a cap on the number of false\ignorant\unsupported statements that are allowed in a given time period. Since most of yours fit more into the category of pathetic and\or laughable (maybe a touch of desperate also), you might easily slide under the rules this time. But if just some sort of “percentage rule” could be established it might help protect some of the more innocent passerbys. Let’s recap on just two of your mistaken comments: You claimed there was only one Bible verse that mentioned homosexuality but there were 16 direct and countless indirect. Let’s be generous and use the 16, you missed that one by 1600%.(Ouch!) And with the number of those who saw the ressurected Christ being 500 (just using that one verse alone would have set your “Cynicswrongagain” percentage back a whopping 50,000 percent!) Of course I’m just yanking your chain a little, you actually serve as one of the best representatives of Bible detractors I’ve encountered. What you don’ t actually possess in real facts, you make up for in some great blustery tirades. But you might think about taking a few weeks off and then come back as a Bible defender instead. Defending the Bible is a whole lot easier than it is to attack it. It’s kind of like defending a lion: all you have to do is open the cage others have tried to put it in and simply let it out! It defends itself. I can also say to your credit that at least you havent yet committed the Unforgiveable Sin like Tom did. That’s right, he accused me of ascribing to the teachings of Hal Lindsay! Unforgiveable both in this world and the world to come. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/97 "2005-08-30T14:06:42Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > Further, since the Bible is authored by God Himself, Cite? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/98 "2005-08-30T14:06:45Z")
[QUOTE=Bible man] > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > This false statement confirms my suspicion that you have never actually opened the Bible and read it, or any secular work of the time period for that matter. “Oh no, you DIDN’T!!!” Bible man, Dio is the Greek NT man here! He has studied & thought about it WAY too much! I can argue his rampant skepticism & cynicism & his tendency to assert the views of liberal scholars as proven facts, but his knowledge of the Greek NT is unassailable. I don’t think he’s studied Hebrew so his OT scholarship is limited to the English text & those who do know Hebrew. I also have to concede to his “lack of historical evidence” claims, but then again, I wonder what ancient writings we have would really match his standards of historical evidence. Dio has the knowledge, he’s just gotta be blessed with the gift of faith. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/99 "2005-08-30T14:17:13Z")
> [@Bible man](#): > > It’s hard to disagree with you that demanding unwilling, homosexual sex from visitors to a town fits into the category of “inhospitality”. Maybe it will come up at Saddam’s trial also. “Mr. Hussein, you are charged with the torture, rape and murder of the Iraqi people and several of your neighboring countries, how do you plead?” “I would like to plead guilty with an explanation, and I just want to pay the fine and go home. I’d rather plead guilty for my inhospitality and just be done with this whole thing.” By the way Cynic, where is Roseville located anyway? (Just so people will know where not to stop for the night.) You misunderstand. To the majority of Orthodox Jewish scholars through the millienia, homosexuality is a great sin and an “abomination.”. However, inhospitality is worse. For example **Jayjay** is very gay. I can easily pull out the phone book and chat with a bunch of rabbis who will tell me exactly how and why this is a sin. But, they will all agree that **Jayjay** ’s sins will be weighed against the many good things he has done in his life. If instead, I asked these rabbis about a person who was without generosity, compassion, empathy etc, a person who actually took pleasure in causing pain and hardship for others, the rabbis would tell me that such a person has no good deeds to weigh. The people of Sodom and Gammorah could have been gayer than the members of the Judy Garland fan club, and only torn themselves away from group sex long enough to worship graven images, and the Lord would still not have destroyed them if they had compassion, and gave charity to the stranger. Inhospitality is not something you admit to as a lesser crimer. It is the greatest offense one can commit. Cain’s great sin is not murder. It is a lack of empathy. When given the chance to confess his crime, he says “Am I my brother’s keeper?”. When he is exiled, he doesn’t show remorse for what he has done. He doesn’t apologize to mom and dad. Cain only shows concern for himself ‘What about me? Who will protect me? What if other people want to kill me?’. > [@](#): > > The New Covenant is based on Christ’s personal fulfillment of the requirements of the Law, the commandments of God are never set aside in the process. Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law and the prophets but to complete and fulfill them.” (Matt5:17) None of God’s commandments will ever pass away including the prohibitions against sexual perversions (homosexuality, adultery, beastiality, incest, cross-dressing, etc) Only the rituals of the law concerning feasts, ceremonial washings, sacrifice of lambs, dietary laws etc, passed away with the arrival of and the sacrifice of Christ. Their prophetic, preparatory function was fulfilled. This was signified by the tearing of the temple veil at the death of Christ.p I’ve heard other Christians make the distinction between ‘ritual law’ and ‘moral law’ before. I still don’t understand it. As a Jew, I see 613 commandments all of which are the law of the G-d of Abraham. > [@](#): > > -The following verses deal directly with homosexuality (and its various forms ie, both Caananite and Jewish cult sodomites) throughout the Bible. Homosexuality is also included in countless other verses which come under the heading of “sins of the flesh”, “vile practices”, or “lusts of the flesh” etc > Gen19:1-29 > Lev18:22 > Lev20:13 > Rom1:26-27 > 1Cor6:9 > 1Tim1:9-10 > Deut23:17 > 1Ki14:24 > Judges19:14-29 > 2Kings23:7 > 1Kings14:24 > 1Kings15:12 > 1Kings22:46 > Jude1:7 > Rev21:8 > Ezekiel16:49-50 (this verse also gives us the underlying societal excesses which led to the “abominable offenses” of Sodom. Rampant homosexuality is one of the symptoms of a sick society.) Again, this section could be (and has been in the past) the topic of its own thread. Here I’ll just say that none of these verses could condmemn _homosexuality_. The view of homosexuality as an orientation, a state of being, is a modern thing. At most, the verses could condemn homosexual _activities_. > [@](#): > > The martyrs who died to give us the Bible died for the most selfless and purest of motives: their belief was that the Bible was God’s Word and that it would change others lives for the better. This is different from the Muslims who died in the Crusades how exactly? Or the Cathars, Manicheans, etc who died in the Inquisition? > [@](#): > > Further, since the Bible is authored by God Himself, it is actually the most reliable and complete historical source book on earth. By no stetch of the imagination is it the most complete. The OT concerns itself only with some of the history of the Israelites. The NT is almost entirely about a certain carpenter. What is your proof that either was authored by G-d? By authored, do you mean dictated letter for letter, or simply divinely inspired? > [@](#): > > And its dates, places, and events have always been verified by archaeoloical digs and by reputable historians No they haven’t. I believe that the Lord delivered me from slavery in Egypt and brought me to the promised land. If there is any archeological evidence of any of that, I haven’t seen it. > [@](#): > > . It dovetails with secular historians like Josephus, who mentions Christ, John the Baptist, James (the brother of Jesus) and others. All of which are now believed to have been inserted by later writers. > [@](#): > > Your post did present one really good argument, it serves as one of the best arguments I’ve seen for having some posting standards that might put a cap on the number of false\ignorant\unsupported statements that are allowed in a given time period. Since most of yours fit more into the category of pathetic and\or laughable (maybe a touch of desperate also), you might easily slide under the rules this time. I’ve been thinking the same things about your posts. > [@](#): > > But if just some sort of “percentage rule” could be established it might help protect some of the more innocent passerbys. Let’s recap on just two of your mistaken comments: You claimed there was only one Bible verse that mentioned homosexuality but there were 16 direct and countless indirect. That statement is unproven and highly debatable. > [@](#): > > Of course I’m just yanking your chain a little, you actually serve as one of the best representatives of Bible detractors I’ve encountered. What you don’ t actually possess in real facts, you make up for in some great blustery tirades. Again, I’ve been thinking the same thing about you. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/100 "2005-08-30T14:19:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Cite? Right here on the copyright page. > [@](#): > > All rights reserved; no part of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying or otherwise, without the permission of the publisher > > First published in Heaven in 4004 BC > > Copyright 4004 BC God > > Names, characters, and related indicia are copyright and trademark God Productions, prehistory > > God has asserted His moral rights > > ISBN 0 0000 0000 1 A > > This book carved on acid-free stone tablets > > First edition [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669.md?page=6)