# The Second Beast of Revelation 13 - Abu Mazen **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669 "2005-08-26T02:31:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/121 "2005-09-24T20:11:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This is just a nit and really doesn’t matter. On the second page of this thread, one of the nicknames or “titles” in a long list that was given, was “Morning Star”. If I remember right, the Morning Star was Lucifer, the most beautiful and most favored of all the angels. Then he turned to the dark side. Even among scholars who aren’t waiting for the end of the world, there’s debate on who Lucifer, Morning Star and a few others refer to. There are some IMHO convincing arguments that Lucifer is a reference to a human king. ‘O Lightbearer, how the mighty are fallen’ the prophet is speaking of a king who had lost his power and wealth or was about to do so. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/122 "2005-09-24T20:28:21Z")
Thanks Doc. It seems that even what we think is clear and simple is really about as clear as mud. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/123 "2005-09-24T20:51:47Z")
Wonder what the Google ads for this thread will look like… Apocalyse WOW!: Fall-out shelters at bargin prices. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/124 "2005-09-24T20:54:31Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I thought Tyr the Hunter killed Fenris, while Thor was killing the Midgard Serpent (?) [Garm](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/garm.html) vs [Tyr](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tyr.html) (Tyr gave Fenris a hand, earlier.) [Fenrir (Fenris)](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/fenrir.html) vs [Odin](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/odin.html) [Jormungand (Midgard Serpent)](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/jormungand.html) vs [Thor](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/thor.html) [Ragnarok](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/ragnarok.html) overview. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/125 "2005-09-24T20:58:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > [Garm](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/g/garm.html) vs [Tyr](http://www.pantheon.org/articles/t/tyr.html) (Tyr gave Fenris a hand, earlier.) Good pun! Tyr sacrificed his hand, in order to keep Fenris “busy”, making it easier to chain him. That’s why I confused Vidar and Tyr, they both fought Fenris, though at different times. I need to re-read those stories again. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/126 "2005-09-24T21:09:05Z")
Re Morningstar Isaiah 14:12 [http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm](http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm) IMO Clearly a human king in context. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/127 "2005-09-24T21:20:04Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Re Morningstar > > Isaiah 14:12 [Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations.](http://bible.cc/isaiah/14-12.htm) IMO Clearly a human king in context. Lay the nations low, prostrate the nations, cast lot… That sounds a LOT like an earthly warrior king, a conqeror. I wonder if this was one specific king, or was it a generic slam against all would be conquerors. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/128 "2005-09-24T22:03:37Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This is just a nit and really doesn’t matter. On the second page of this thread, one of the nicknames or “titles” in a long list that was given, was “Morning Star”. If I remember right, the Morning Star was Lucifer, the most beautiful and most favored of all the angels. Then he turned to the dark side. This is covered extensively in _Paradise Lost_, where Lucifer spends the first four books yelling “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!” while falling. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/129 "2005-09-25T00:37:24Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > This is covered extensively in _Paradise Lost_, where Lucifer spends the first four books yelling “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!” while falling. 😃😃😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/130 "2005-09-25T00:58:50Z")
Maybe I should clarify where I was “coming from”, so it is clear why I thought the subject of Lucifer was a simple matter. Being raised Catholic, and having gone to a Catholic grade school, followed by a Catholic high school, we were taught that Satan/Lucifer/devil/Beelzebub/whatevah was a fallen angel who had rebelled against God. His crime was pride. Predictably, he was cast down. Before that, he had been the favorite, the most beautiful, the best, the morning star and the light of dawn, yada yada yada. We were taught that he was a real person (or a real being). It was he who appeared to Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent. He was the demon, the prince of lies, lord of flies, the accuser, the great corruptor, he was The Big Bad. That is what we were taught, and that was it. It just was, and that was that. Just so everyone knows where I got that idea. Since then, I’ve come to question a lot of things. The more I learn, the more I think I am starting to figure it all out, the more convoluted it gets. **Damn frustrating**. Personally, I don’t think we need a devil. We are perfectly capable of doing our own evil without any outside help, just as we are capable of doing good. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/131 "2005-09-25T20:17:25Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Even among scholars who aren’t waiting for the end of the world, there’s debate on who Lucifer, Morning Star and a few others refer to. There are some IMHO convincing arguments that Lucifer is a reference to a human king. ‘O Lightbearer, how the mighty are fallen’ the prophet is speaking of a king who had lost his power and wealth or was about to do so. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#.22Lucifer.22\_and\_the\_Hebrew\_Bible](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#.22Lucifer.22_and_the_Hebrew_Bible). ---
**Author:** ![unophobia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/41988e/32.png) [@unophobia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unophobia)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/132 "2005-09-26T00:09:16Z")
epraim, question: Are you going to depict every Palestinian as part of the 666 or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/133 "2005-09-26T09:33:19Z")
> [@ephraim](#): > > Christians will see God before he dies. So, let us up the ante: If Mahmoud Abbas dies before the Second Coming, do you promise to admit here explicitly that you cannot tell the difference between the voice of God and your own imagination, and will rephrain from indulging your apocalypse fetish here forever more? ---
**Author:** ![ephraim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@ephraim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ephraim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/134 "2005-09-26T11:42:48Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > So, let us up the ante: If Mahmoud Abbas dies before the Second Coming, do you promise to admit here explicitly that you cannot tell the difference between the voice of God and your own imagination, and will rephrain from indulging your apocalypse fetish here forever more? I will be in heaven with all other Christians when he dies so it will be physically impossible to do as you ask. We are speaking of two separate events. The Rapture happens before the Lord’s Second Coming. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/135 "2005-09-26T12:11:04Z")
> [@ephraim](#): > > Christians will see God before he dies. > [@ephraim](#): > > I will be in heaven with all other Christians when he dies so it will be physically impossible to do as you ask. We are speaking of two separate events. The Rapture happens before the Lord’s Second Coming. I seem to have lost my Playbill, so mind if I clarify the order of events? 1. Rapture. The best 144,000 direct descendants of the 12 tribes (12,000 per tribe, please - no cuts) get to go to heaven. 2. Jesus pops down to Earth for a visit. Laughs at the six billion people Left Behind. 3. Mahmoud Abbas dies. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/136 "2005-09-26T12:26:36Z")
> [@ephraim](#): > > I will be in heaven with all other Christians when he dies so it will be physically impossible to do as you ask. Only if you’re _right_. I am asking about if you’re _wrong_. If you are correct, and the Second Coming occurs before Abbas dies, I will appear on this website and explicitly repent and state my error. **If** you are wrong, and Abbas dies before you go to heaven such taht we all, say, red about it in the news one day, will you admit here explicitly that you cannot tell the difference between the voice of God and your own imagination? Why not, if you’re so sure of yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/137 "2005-09-26T12:43:14Z")
I am impressed by **ephraim’s** ideas, and would like to subscribe to his End Times. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/138 "2005-09-26T13:51:09Z")
> [@ephraim](#): > > I will be in heaven with all other Christians when he dies so it will be physically impossible to do as you ask. We are speaking of two separate events. The Rapture happens before the Lord’s Second Coming. So you _do_ claim to know more than Christ, Himself. I’ll give you this: you’re an interesting sort of person; one who believes himself greater than the god he worships. CJ ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/139 "2005-09-26T15:20:32Z")
I don’t believe in any rapture. Neither does “my” church. Just so it’s clear that this is not a universal belief. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669/140 "2005-09-26T15:56:36Z")
Most Christians don’t believe in the Rapture, especially when you look at Christianity throughout its history. Rapture theology was only developed within the past few hundred years and there’s little or no Biblical evidence for it, other than cherry-picking certain verses. Indeed, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Christ’s statement that no one knows when the end will come, including Him makes it rather awkward for a Christian to claim to know when the End Times will come about. Still, some insist on doing so. Apparently, they want people to serve God out of fear, rather than love, which also directly contradicts Christ’s teachings. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-beast-of-revelation-13-abu-mazen/318669.md?page=8)