# The second coming of Jesus Christ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318 "2004-04-05T07:32:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/101 "2004-04-21T11:00:30Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > “they think they long for something but they don’t really” > > Well, I do know better than you about myself, thanks. > > And yes, us christians know what its like to know the Lord, if not yet be with Him physically. > We are still stuck in these perishable bodies. Yes, but you are willing to sacrifice my father and some of my closest friend to achieve that. ☹ CJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/102 "2004-04-21T13:43:47Z")
This is under Gods’ control. It will happen when He says so. We are humans and cannot command God. God gives everyone a choice, if they reject Him, its not my fault. Jojo: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/103 "2004-04-21T16:37:46Z")
**vanilla** , the point here is that a god who would set things up that way is inherently unworthy of my worship. I just cannot get behind the “God did it, therefore by definition it’s good” deal. I don’t _care_ if God is supposed to be the definition of good. My personal conscience says that that setup is evil. Therefore I can’t worship that god. Even if I believed he existed. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/104 "2004-04-21T16:37:47Z")
If your desire to see other human beings suffer so that you can be with God is so great, then perhaps it is. You may tell me you don’t want other human beings to suffer, but that is part and parcel of the, if you’ll excuse the term, abomination of a theology you embrace. Tell me you’re willing to stick around and care for those who will be widowed and orphaned as a result of these events, tell me you’re willing to something to ameliorate the awful damage your cruel Rapture will entail and I may see some merit in it. Make me believe that you love life and creation, rather than the death and destruction that is the essence of Rapture theology, and I may be able to revise my opinion of you, but not of it, I’m afraid. I don’t choose to believe that I will rest, safe and happy, in heaven while others suffer. Among other things, I’m not at all certain I’m that good of a person. Apparently you are. As to the OP’s last post, all I can say is, “Huh?” 😕 CJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/105 "2004-04-21T17:02:44Z")
apparently you are. Spare me the sarcasm. God, ,“I’ve finally waited a long time to finally judge the world’s sin, and now my believers will be lifted up for protection”. me"Oh no! How dare you! I don’t want to be happy! I want to be down here with the people who will be murdering Christians (thats what they will be doing), I love them so much even though they are killing innocent people cause of their faith! let me stay and suffer too! I am smarter than you, God. I have decided no one should ever be judged or punished! You are unfair! I protest! " ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/106 "2004-04-21T17:21:01Z")
No! I am saying that as Siege, SDMB poster and extremely fallible human being, I have no right to be spared the tribulations which are peculiar to and an essential part of Rapture theology. That I have no claim on God’s mercy or right to expect that I will be pulled up to heaven leaving my car going down the freeway at entirely too high a rate of speed only to kill someone who was put off Christianity by the actions of Christians, but who has tried the best he or she can to live a decent life. I find it appalling that I should consider such a prospect a good thing. I stand by my analogy that it’s akin to winning the lottery, but having the population of a small town be tortured and killed in order for me to do so. Genesis says when God created the world, he called it “Good.” Should I long for the destruction of that which God called “Good”? Should I desire the suffering of others to satisfy my own need for judgement and vindication? Do I have the right to want to see _any_ other human being suffer even if the prize for me is all of heaven? My answer is and shall remain the most emphatic "_ **No!** _ I can muster. Yes, the price of one other person’s suffering for my salvation is too high, even if that person combines the worst of Jeffery Dahmer, Adolph Hitler, and, since I’m invoking her law for the first time, Gaudere! Besides, wasn’t the price for my salvation paid some 2000 years ago by one Person? Wasn’t that sufficient Atonement for the sins of the world? If belief in the Rapture is required to be a Christian, then I am no Christian, nor can I become one. If that saddens you, I regret it, but it is not something this soul is capable of. If God is merciful, as I believe Him to be, He will understand, for he surely made me this way, stubbornness and all. **Vanilla** , much as I like you, I cannot believe this. It is too cruel and terrible for me, and I do not expect to gain heaven if God is cruel enough to allow it to happen. I am too wrong about God, and I have no place in the heaven He would create. If you must or choose to believe it for your own reasons, so be it. With respect, and I do mean that, I am not capable of believing in the Rapture or longing for it. Heaven, yes. To suffer no more and be in the Presence of God, a joyful, _yes_. To see billions tortured and killed that I may do so, simply, “No.” Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/107 "2004-04-21T17:29:08Z")
To those of us who believe in the tribulation, these sinners are going to suffer, no matter how you kindly wish they wouldn’t; you won’t really be able to stop it. platonically(😉 Vanilla ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/108 "2004-04-21T22:47:05Z")
Why, _why_ do you choose to believe in billions of sinners suffering? Isn’t what you’ve suffered in your own life enough? Isn’t the suffering on the evening news enough? You and I both know the arguments Christ made which can be read as proving or disproving the Rapture. Indeed, I know I’ve cited mine in this thread. You speak of Christians being tortured and killed. As I understand Rapture theology, so will non-Christians. Should I grieve more for the torture and death of the Christian who accused me of leading people to hell than for the Wiccans who took me into their home when I was laid off? Should I be happier to see **gobear** tortured than **NoClueBoy**? I’m an old hand at taking on things I cannot stop and cannot change. I see no reason to stop now. An old friend of mine is in severe trouble at the moment due to some very malicious attacks. He’s starting to feel like he can see no point in continuing to fight, that evil will succeed in the end. I counseled him to stand fast, that warriors that he and I are, no matter how great the odds, we will fight, and we will not do so alone for our faiths tell us we do not stand alone. You, **vanilla** , I know, mainly see the sweetness and joy of being with God that the Rapture entails, and the peace of being free of the troubles that this world has unjustly saddled you with. I know you don’t dwell on the destruction of the wicked, regardless of how they’re being defined by the various sides involved. If I could do that, perhaps I, too, might take solace in the idea of the Rapture. Unfortunately, outsider and fighter that I am, the destructive side of that philosophy takes up far too much of my sight. I can see being with God, but I can see a field of battered and bleeding bodies I must cross to attain that and I cannot cross it. I will not believe the suffering of others is necessary for my salvation or my admission to heaven, for the suffering of Christ was enough. I also know too much of history. Earlier today, I was reading a book on the history of coal which reminded me of something. The Black Death killed a third of the population of Europe. In my native England, it killed about half the population. The years leading up to it were years of cold and famine, which may have increased the death toll. The symptoms were obvious and ugly. Oh, and apparently the Black Death may have staved off a fuel crisis since people weren’t burning coal regularly at the time, supplies of wood were running low, and other fuels weren’t available. People, obviously, read such things as signs the end times were night. That was 700 years ago. For that matter, as the world approached the years 1000 CE and 2000 CE, people figured the world would end on a nice round number. For that matter, in Matthew 24:34, in the middle of the verses used to support the Rapture, Christ says, "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. " Of course in Matthew 24:36, He says, "36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. " If you tell me the Rapture will come soon, do you mean to tell me you know more than Christ? Christians have expected the End Times since there were Christians. Why is now more likely than 4 1/2 years ago, or 700 years ago, or 1000 years ago? Are things really worse today than when the Black Death ran rampant? Actually, I suppose if you’re a Native American, given that the Americas weren’t hit by it, the answer may be “Yes!” I do not know whom or how God will judge, nor would I presume to do so. I am not assured of my own salvation or damnation, let alone anyone else’s, and for me to do so would be to assume the role of God. There are people in this world I heartily dislike. There are even people in this world I’ve hated. Some, as it happens are Christians, at least in name. Even so, if I take pleasure in the idea of their suffering, no matter how greatly I think they deserve it, I am sinning and, as nearly as I can tell, drawing that much closer to my own damnation. The things that make me Christian, the things that allow me not only to acknowledge but to proclaim Christ as my Saviour and to bear witness to all that He has done do not allow me to believe in the Rapture or to glory in the destruction of evil doers. I am not allowed to take pleasure in the suffering of my fellow man or woman. For me to do so would be to betray my vows, and, in doing so, to betray Christ. I am sorry we differ. CJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/109 "2004-04-21T22:55:20Z")
I never said the suffering of others was necessary for you or I to get to Heaven. It seems to be necessary(at least those last 7 years) because God is a judge. He must judge sin. We could be dead by the time of the rapture, and it would still go on. I am not wishing for any to suffer through it, but I cannot stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/110 "2004-04-21T23:39:49Z")
I could tell you you can stop believing in it, but that would be as unfair to you as telling me I could start believing in it would be unfair to me. Do I believe the world will end? Certainly. All things do. I do not believe in the cruel and terrible vision of the world ending as depicted by those who cherry pick verses from Revelation and Matthew to show horrendous suffering any more than I believe in the old Norse vision of Ragnarok. As far as I can make out, the only difference between those two visions is which side wins. I don’t believe God said so, or, if He did, He didn’t to me. Maybe I missed that memo? 😕 Personally, I think it far more likely that Revelation was a response to the far more horrendous circumstances facing Christians in the early days of Christianity. Being a Christian may get you kicked out of some of the best parties, although I can’t even say that’s happened to me, but it beats being quite literally thrown to the lions! Despite the worst fears of the Religious Right, I’m not going to jail just for being a Christian. For what it’s worth, you’re the first person I’ve _liked_ who’s embraced the Rapture. Despite your best efforts, I still don’t understand why. It’s spring. There’s a crab apple tree just starting to bloom outside my window, I’m looking forward to spending the weekend with an old friend, and, dare I say it, I may even be starting to fall in love. I’d be very happy for their to be another several thousand springs or so before all this beauty fades. God will see to the evil as he does to the good. His judgement is, by definition, just and merciful. I will entrust the fate of the wicked to Him as surely as I trust my own, and hope that it doesn’t turn out I’m one of the former. :eek: That doesn’t mean I won’t defend myself or others. Among other things, I’ve done that within the past week. It means that I don’t need visions of suffering to trust in God’s justice. He knows what He’s doing. He’d better! 😃 (Picture a small, outraged, Siege stamping her foot in front of a God a few gagillion times bigger than her.) CJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/111 "2004-04-22T02:28:23Z")
I like you, too. Fortunately, the rapture doctrine is not necessary for salvation so we cna disagree on it. If I’m wrong, well, fine. But its what got me saved(I didn’t want to be left behind, and no, I’ve never read those books) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/112 "2004-04-22T16:10:45Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > (Picture a small, outraged, Siege stamping her foot in front of a God a few gagillion times bigger than her.) > > CJ Is there any way a talented comid-artist Doper can do a Chick parody based on that image!!! PLEASE!!! ---
**Author:** ![godamajin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@godamajin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godamajin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/113 "2004-04-25T11:28:02Z")
No one “gave” Revalations to the Christians. A Christian wrote revelations, a bizarre mishmash of imagery that throws up echoes of older Jewish scriptures. Cite for “polarized the globe”. Maybe your tiny section of it but aside from appealing to zealous believers I’m not sure how applicable a movie screaming “Look what you did to God” is when describing feeling in Bali. What? Isn’t Jesus supposed to come back in glory and with trumpets or something? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [QUOTE)Jihad being waged by a small number of ideologically linked terrorists or the response of various governments to the terrorists{/QUOTE}[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Grey] You wouldn’t happen to know of any unholy religions would you? Besides are you talking about jihad being waged by a small number of ideologically linked terrorists or the response of various governments to those terrorists? You and I may be talking about that, but the reality may be entirely hidden behind the bliss. How do you suppose the ideological link? Do they oppose order or do they compose it with their massive ability to create. Yet suppress expression. Perhaps it may be a silent scream from a brother to another. What compells those that cut off the nose to spite the face. If you watch a fruit tree, it will bear fruit and prosper. If you watch a healthy Nation of People who bear the fruits of its labor the they will prosper and wonder. Expanding into the darkness and worlds of unknown fears exposing the emptiness of hope bound to the promises of liberation and oneness with brothers. But first we must cure cancer. With respect to your remark concerning “Look what you did to God”. In here is the key. I wish people would try harder at least to give benefit to the actions of sacrifice and place wealth where wealth lay. The message of Jesus I think should be consistently presented as an act of a loving, giving consciousness that allows us foundation for the graveyard of guilt in conscious witness of our failures. That we may negate the constant ponderance of “consequences” and get on with “causes” then we put the right frame into mind.\ Jesus is imagery of Giving, sacrifice and renewal. How did you get the accusatory message if you werent yourself haunted by guilt. What did you do to God. We you abundant while others were without. The less that you give your a taker. Assume the absurd for a moment. Suppose a tree so foolish the two of its branches fight amongst themselves. What is so different than applying this to religious teachings. What messages are they trying to convey. What is the source and why cant we see? They convey the same thing from begining toi end echoed in redundant recycling untill it be heard. So that the branches might calm the quarrel and simply get bacl to the task of being the tree. You see when they see their not connected in common that is the source of all thats the oroblem. When they see the sacred dissolve the profane then the clarity will become as the books have describec, revealing, uniting the states of the mind egocentricities boggle mankind. ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL UNITED STATES OF A FEARLESS PEOPLE UNITED STATES OF EXAMPLE OF COURAGE AND SELF SACRIFICE UNITED STATES AGAINST THE STATUS QUO OF THE BABYLON AND THE BOSOM OF THE HO All the signs have passed, the perfect storm is here and when all is said and done their will be a return of the kingdom of men. As we believe so shall we become, luke use the force, “Battle stations everyone”. CPT. Kirk Uss Enterprise “Photon torpedos full power” Scotty “Engage” John Luke Pichard atscab “Really. did he say not to eat of the fruit of the garden”? Serpent "Be all you can be’ uncle sam Chop wood. Carry water ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/114 "2004-04-25T17:53:46Z")
I’m afraid you’re still not making sense to me. Your imagery, while curious enough, is too vague to have meaning. What good is ultimate Truth if one is unable to articulate it? CJ ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318/115 "2004-04-25T22:01:13Z")
godamajin, Do you mean that it is like a sandwich? We can only have one sandwich that we must share. The problem is that you want cheese and onion but I only want cheese. We could reach an agreement and one of us could compromise and then we both get to eat. Or neither of us could compromise and we both go hungry. Is that what you mean? If it is then I agree with you. If that’s not what you mean then I don’t know what you mean. But even if I don’t know what you mean, I don’t mind. You write well and use nice symbolism. That’s half the battle, just ask James Joyce. No one knows what he was on about either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-coming-of-jesus-christ/238318.md?page=5)