# The second presidential debate: 10/16/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847 "2012-10-16T04:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/661 "2012-10-17T05:07:26Z")
I’m trying to understand the Benghazi thing. Let’s assume that Obama didn’t say what he actually did say. Please complete the following statement: > [@](#): > > Obama didn’t call it a terrorist act, but instead said it was the result of anti-American sentiment over the You Tube video. Because of this… What, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![AnalogSignal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/analogsignal/32/1085_2.png) [@AnalogSignal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnalogSignal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/662 "2012-10-17T05:08:43Z")
I just watched a recording of the debate. After his lackluster first debate, Obama had to come through this time and I thought he did so convincingly hitting all the right notes. Obama was very assertive but also smooth and presidential. I thought he won on both style and substance. Romney was outclassed with his awkward style, a tax plan that no one understands, and his “binders full of women” gaffe. I doubt many undecided voters are fired up about Benghazi. I think it was a mistake for Romney to turn it into the centerpiece of his campaign. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/663 "2012-10-17T05:09:42Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Except they weren’t. > > [First](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/16/fact-check-libya-attack/), is that. [Secondly](http://videos.mediaite.com/video/Candy-Crowley-Romney-Right-That), that. > > It was a complete and obvious lie and the stupid moderator covered for him. The whole thing was a farce. That’s not at all true. She corrected him on his wording, but also pointed out that his argument was essentially correct. > [@](#): > > CROWLEY: He — he did call it an act of terror. It did as well take — it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea there being a riot out there about this tape to come out. You are correct about that. Why not mention the second part? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/664 "2012-10-17T05:12:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Plus, Obama accepted full responsibility, which on the positive side is Presidential, but on the negative side, well, he’s fully responsible. And his high dudgeon about the accusations of lying are going to bite him once the media fact checks him. Someone ordered Jay Carney and Susan Rice to lie for two weeks. Yes, he accepted responsibility, but he is not the only one, nor the most important, to deserve blame. Embassy security is not run out of the White House. And the idea that anyone was out there lying as part of some sort of cover-up is ridiculous. Do you seriously think a cover-up would be undertaken without having a very good idea of what actually happened in this tragedy? Doesn’t it make more sense that the reason different accounts came out of the White House was they were reacting to new info as it came available? Hell, the FBI didn’t get there for what, weeks? But if you have any _real_ evidence of a conspiracy of some sort, then let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/665 "2012-10-17T05:14:33Z")
No, he didn’t. See a couple of my links in some older post. The context of that quote was not only not in reference to Libya, but in the two weeks prior he refused to label it as a terrorist attack. Members of his own staff plain said “this was not a terrorist attack”. When asked if Libya was a terrorist attack on ‘The View’, he refused to say it was. The WH spent two weeks dancing around the issue before someone said it was a terrorist attack and, iirc, it was Hillary who first said it was. I’ve produced about four different cites for this now. How about you guys produce some? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/666 "2012-10-17T05:18:05Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, he didn’t. See a couple of my links in some older post. The context of that quote was not only not in reference to Libya, but in the two weeks prior he refused to label it as a terrorist attack. Members of his own staff plain said “this was not a terrorist attack”. When asked if Libya was a terrorist attack on ‘The View’, he refused to say it was. The WH spent two weeks dancing around the issue before someone said it was a terrorist attack and, iirc, it was Hillary who first said it was. > > I’ve produced about four different cites for this now. How about you guys produce some? We don’t have to produce cites to show you what the transcript says. You can read the transcript. It’s awesome that the Republicans are so utterly without merit that only this horseshit is what you can pretend to be outraged about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/667 "2012-10-17T05:20:52Z")
What would be any different? Would the victims no longer be dead? Would we be much closer to knowing who to bomb? I already know the motives of the perpetrators, their motive is terror. If the motive is a general hatred not focused on any particular event, so fucking what? I want them found and persuaded to see the light and rejoin the community of reasoning men. If that proves to be impractical, dead will do. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/668 "2012-10-17T05:21:01Z")
Yes, while there was an investigation going on, the President didn’t jump the gun and f-up the process by declaring the attack something it possibly wasn’t. I guess I can see how one could get outraged by this - well, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/669 "2012-10-17T05:21:34Z")
ETA: addressed to **OMG**. Obama [accepts](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/16/president-obama-accepts-responsibility-for-libya-attack-in-bullish-debate-performance_n_1972350.html) responsibility. > [@](#): > > “I am ultimately responsible, these are my folks, I’m the one who has to greet the coffins when they come home,” [Obama] said. So he didn’t label it specifically as a “terrorist attack.” So what? This is a phony argument ginned up to make the President look bad, when in fact it makes more sense to believe the admin, lacking clairvoyance, chose to respond to the facts as they knew them at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/670 "2012-10-17T05:24:48Z")
> [@AnalogSignal](#): > > . . . and his “binders full of women” gaffe. . . . I thought it was a gaffe, but for a different reason: he was endorsing a practice of Affirmative Action in hiring! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/671 "2012-10-17T05:25:44Z")
> [@Nazarene](#): > > Romney breaking the rules there. Candidates aren’t supposed to ask each other questions. > > This following Obama around making hectoring accusations looks terrible. Somebody on MSNBC made the point that Obama missed a chance here - Mitt sent a team in to negotiate these rules, agreed to them, then ignored them once he felt it was appropriate. The MSNBC guy pointed out that, once again, the 1% think the rules don’t really apply to them, even the ones they agreed to honor. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/672 "2012-10-17T05:26:18Z")
Romney got shut down pretty decisively over the Benghazi thing. Trying to make additional hay of it now will only serve to make him look more petty. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/673 "2012-10-17T05:26:36Z")
There could very well be some legimate, reasonable and credible reasons for not announcing all that is known about the attack. It would be a shame to see the pursuit of the perpetrators, the investigation and the general well being of any people actively investigating this in Benghazi compromised for the sake of satisfying talking points. Not to say that this absolves the administration of blame, nor that they shouldn’t be honest, or that mistakes weren’t made - just that there might be a whole lot more at play here than the soundbite of “Obama would be damaged by a premeditated terror attack” on one side or “Waiting for all the information is best” on the other. That there is some balance between pre-meditation and a general angry reaction over the video is also clear. To argue so much about where that balance lies - seems to be missing the forest for the trees to me. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/674 "2012-10-17T05:30:30Z")
Personally, I like the fact that the President’s diplomatic team waited until all the facts are in. You can lie in a campaign like Mitt Romney, but when you do it in the Oval Office, it can become an international incident. And we gave the cite. Here it is again. President Obama: As Americans, let us never, ever forget that our freedom is only sustained because there are people who are willing to fight for it, to stand up for it, and in some cases, lay down their lives for it. Our country is only as strong as the character of our people and the service of those both civilian and military who represent us around the globe. No acts of terror will ever shake the resolve of this great nation, alter that character, or eclipse the light of the values that we stand for. Today we mourn four more Americans who represent the very best of the United States of America. We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act. And make no mistake, justice will be done. But we also know that the lives these Americans led stand in stark contrast to those of their attackers. These four Americans stood up for freedom and human dignity. Romney thought he could make something up and nobody would call him on it. It’s worked in the past. But it doesn’t _always_ work, and those who don’t live in a fantasy world care about the facts. ETA: And here’s the debate transcript: > [@](#): > > ``` > ROMNEY: I think it's interesting the president just said something, which — which is that on the day after the attack he went into the Rose Garden and said that this was an act of terror. > > OBAMA: That’s what I said. > > ROMNEY: You said in the Rose Garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror? It was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you’re saying? > > OBAMA: Please proceed governor. > > ROMNEY: I want to make sure we get that for the record because it took the president 14 days before he called the attack in Benghazi an act of terror. > > OBAMA: Get the transcript. > > CROWLEY: He did in fact, sir. So let me — let me call it an act of terror.... > > OBAMA: Can you say that a little louder, Candy? > > ``` ht kevin drum ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/675 "2012-10-17T05:37:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I thought it was a gaffe, but for a different reason: he was endorsing a practice of Affirmative Action in hiring! It’s also (total shocker!) [not exactly true](http://blog.thephoenix.com/BLOGS/talkingpolitics/archive/2012/10/16/mind-the-binder.aspx): > [@](#): > > What actually happened was that in 2002 – prior to the election, not even knowing yet whether it would be a Republican or Democratic administration – a bipartisan group of women in Massachusetts formed MassGAP to address the problem of few women in senior leadership positions in state government. There were more than 40 organizations involved with the Massachusetts Women’s Political Caucus (also bipartisan) as the lead sponsor. > > They did the research and put together the binder full of women qualified for all the different cabinet positions, agency heads, and authorities and commissions. They presented this binder to Governor Romney when he was elected. So, he didn’t actually request binders full of women. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/676 "2012-10-17T05:53:40Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > It’s also (total shocker!) [not exactly true](http://blog.thephoenix.com/BLOGS/talkingpolitics/archive/2012/10/16/mind-the-binder.aspx): > > So, he didn’t actually request binders full of women. Perhaps. But that’s not what he said: > [@](#): > > .Important topic, and one which I learned a great deal about, particularly as I was serving as governor of my state, because I had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men. > > And I went to my staff, and I said, “How come all the people for these jobs are—are all men.” They said, “Well, these are the people that have the qualifications.” And I said, “Well, gosh, can’t we—can’t we find some—some women that are also qualified?” > > ROMNEY: And—and so we—we took a concerted effort to go out and find women who had backgrounds that could be qualified to become members of our cabinet. > > I went to a number of women’s groups and said, “Can you help us find folks,” and they brought us whole binders full of women. According to Romney, he asked for names of qualified female cabinet members, and got what he asked for: binders full of women. Reading the article, I was a bit surprised that it’s not exactly a defense of Romney… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/677 "2012-10-17T05:57:06Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > New drinking game: every time Obama calls Romney a liar, drink! Fuck that, I did that during the VP debates and I didn’t wake up until Saturday. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > “Governor Romney’s policies may well bring down gas prices, because his economic policies will plunge us into recession again!” Where the fuck was this guy during the last debate? > [@Smapti](#): > > Romney wants to help the middle class by eliminating the capital gains tax? > > How many Americans does he believe have capital gains income? The question is how many American THINK they pay a capital gains tax. During the estate tax debate, the Republican had my sister convinced that my mother’s estate was going to be subject to the estate tax because it was a death tax. > [@BlackKnight](#): > > I don’t know which Mitt Romney showed up to this debate, but at least the president decided to attend this one. No shit. I’m almost more pissed now than after the first debate. After the first debate I thought, “I didn’t know Obama sucked so hard” now I realize he wasn’t trying. WTF!!! Well I donated some money to his superpac in the hopes that he can keep this up. This is like American Idol with money. BTW I did play the Obama calling Romney a liar drinking game and I am HAMMERED. > [@xenophon41](#): > > Boy, Romney rejected that life buoy question to insist his magic math adds up. Not smart. Its hard to make the math add up. > [@jtgain](#): > > Hasn’t this “women work the same job for less pay” been thoroughly debunked? And Obama is keeping it alive? No, but my wife found it offensive that the Romney plan for pay equality for women was making the economy so fucking good that companies will be desperate enough to pay women what they pay men. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Another false claim about Obama doubling the deficit. > > [US Deficit for FY2024: $1.83 trillion.](http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html) > > Bush Deficits > FY 2009†: $1,413 billion > > ## Obama FY 2010: $1,293 billion FY 2011: $1,300 billion FY 2012: $1,089 billion > > So is Romney in favor of the Lily Ledbetter Act or not? > > ETA: Good, Obama caught that. > Contraception. He’s hitting his stride now. Are you serious? You don’t honestly think that you can count the last Bush budget, there was RECESSION then!!! > [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s awesome that the Republicans are so utterly without merit that only this horseshit is what you can pretend to be outraged about. Der de der der, you didn’t come out and say that this was a premeditated terrorist attack until TWO WEEKS after the event when it was obvious to EVERYONE on fox and friends that it was. Its amazing how many Republicans think this is an effective counter to 4 years of awesome foreign policy… and killing Osama bin Laden. Seriously it is a BAD idea to monday morning quarterback someone with Obama’s foreign policy record. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/678 "2012-10-17T06:02:40Z")
And the next debate is to be focused on foreign policy, which hasn’t been Mitt’s strong point so far… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/679 "2012-10-17T06:05:23Z")
Thought game was drink every lie. Not every say “liar”. Took me thirty minutes to tipe this. Fck! ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/680 "2012-10-17T06:12:48Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > If I’m reading it correctly, someone correct me if I’m wrong, the difference is that trickle down economics works because you’re making conditions to where companies want to hire more people, which makes everyone richer. > > Trickle down government is bad because of…um…socialism, or something. Still waiting for a real republican answer to this. Seems like a reasonable question, IMO. My whole political life has been a fight between republican supply-side trickle-down theories and democrat demand-side bubble-up theories, so for one side to give that up in any form is somewhat significant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=35)