# The second presidential debate: 10/16/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847 "2012-10-16T04:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1041 "2012-10-18T01:54:52Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Really? What’s to like more? That it’s got the (R) behind it, instead of the (D)? 'Cos I’m not seeing much of a distinction. The most obvious thing is the appointment of Supreme Court justices. It’s pretty clear where Republican appointees end up on the issue vs Democrat appointees. If you don’t see a sharp difference there, you haven’t been paying attention. There are other things too though: [the UN Arms Trade Treaty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Small_Arms_Treaty#U.S._overturns_former_position), [additional reporting requirements](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/July/11-dag-900.html), [unfriendly signing statements](http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/other/201243-obama-says-hes-not-bound-by-gun-control-ban-in-spending-bill), and [banning the import of a bunch of surplus M1 Garands and carbines](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/01/obama-administration-reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/), to name a few. Even in their answers Tuesday night, it was [pretty apparent to me that Obama would happily sign an AWB and Romney would likely veto one](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/17/us-usa-campaign-guns-idUSBRE89G08T20121017). I understand it’s not one of Obama’s _priorities_, but his _position_ on the issue is quite distinct from Romney’s. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > On _All Things Considered_ this afternoon, a reporter/commentator mentioned that President Obama not pursuing a continued Assault Weapons Ban was a disappointment to the pro-gun control people in his base. I thought _“They couldn’t possibly be more disappointed than the ANTI-gun control people.”_ I’m sorry, but I truly don’t unerstand this thought. I’m anti-gun control and I’m plenty disappointed in Obama (see the above list for starters). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1042 "2012-10-18T02:00:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How 'bout cause I’m a man? Dude, really? Are you a man who has any women in his life? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1043 "2012-10-18T02:09:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dude, really? Are you a man who has any women in his life? They sap his essence. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1044 "2012-10-18T02:14:42Z")
Just keep the goddam things, they mean that much to you! I cannot see throwing an entire modestly progressive agenda into the wood chipper just to pick a fight with ballistic fetishists. At this point in time, any gun control legislation, or even a hint thereof, is a political suicide note. Might as well wrap the keys to the White House in gift paper and have them delivered to whichever of Mitt’s houses seems most appropriate. I certainly respect other views on this, there are other cases to be made. But for me, a fight you can’t win that costs you everything else is a fight to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1045 "2012-10-18T02:16:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dude, really? Are you a man who has any women in his life? Ah, the ties that binder… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1046 "2012-10-18T02:19:19Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > plus its petty amazing that Romney doesn’t apparently know name accomplished women. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Google Translate is failing me here. Little help? > > Was he asked to name accomplished women and couldn’t? Did you feel like that would’ve been a better direction to take his answer in? I think he means it’s odd that Romney didn’t personally _know_ any women he wanted to hire, which it is. Odder still is that he was apparently [making up](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/romney-challenged-binder-full-women-managers/story?id=17501797#.UH9VcW_LRAI) the whole thing about “seeking out qualified women”. > [@](#): > > Even in their answers Tuesday night, it was pretty apparent to me that Obama would happily sign an AWB and Romney would likely veto one. I understand it’s not one of Obama’s priorities, but his position on the issue is quite distinct from Romney’s. If their debate answers existed in a vacuum, I’d agree with you. Romney’s already happily signed an assault weapons ban, though, and didn’t claim it was a mistake or his position has changed or anything. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1047 "2012-10-18T02:20:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not even you believe a single word of that. > > Including the last sentence. Knock it off. Just as in Great Debates, Do not claim that other posters are lying in Elections. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@A\_nice\_guy\_with\_an\_opinion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_nice_guy_with_an_opinion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1048 "2012-10-18T02:22:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Romney managed to tie despite a hostile moderator, a hostile crowd and hostile questions loaded towards Obama every single time. > > He was playing the Patriots in Gillette stadium. There was the equivalent of an extra man on the field. He did well to keep his losses to a minimum. > > To balance this out the next debate would have to be held at Fox and Friends with Glenn Beck as the moderator. Even he would probably refrain from actually lying about the candidates during the debate. Winner. Great post. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1049 "2012-10-18T02:24:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dude, really? Are you a man who has any women in his life? yes, she’s currently cooking my dinner. Look, I think the whole “pay gap” thing is largely a misunderstanding or lack of understanding of a variety of factors that affect how much men and women get paid. My larger point was that if the democrats are always clamoring for people to vote their economic interests, that’s clearly not Obama for me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1050 "2012-10-18T02:35:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Look, I think the whole “pay gap” thing is largely a misunderstanding or lack of understanding of a variety of factors that affect how much men and women get paid. You clearly spent awhile looking at that cite. > [@](#): > > My larger point was that if the democrats are always clamoring for people to vote their economic interests, that’s clearly not Obama for me. Democrats aren’t clamoring for people to vote their economic interests. They clamor for folks to vote for fair economic policies. Obviously the argument in favor of women’s issues isn’t, “this is only something women should support.” Nor is that the argument in favor of extending unemployment benefits, veterans’ benefits, or any other program that benefits a subset of our population. The central arguments revolve around basic ethical principles. Frankly, the brand of identity politics you’re espousing is pretty depressing. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1051 "2012-10-18T02:44:51Z")
I thought that it was Republicans that espoused voting purely on economic self interest and valued selfishness. While the democrats espouse “herd benefit” This is not meant to be a value judgement by the way - but broadly from this campaign I thought the basis of R was that “when I do well, I contribute to the economy and pull everyone else up” while for D it is “when the economy and the people around me are doing well, they will pull me along” Am I wrong in this? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1052 "2012-10-18T02:51:25Z")
Bah! Birdist propaganda! Next you’ll be telling us to share! And play nice. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1053 "2012-10-18T02:56:46Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Yeah, the “binders of women” thing seemed a lot more minor than the whole attitude of “To employ women you need to understand that they’ll be leaving work early every night to cook dinner.” > > Plus the contrast between Obama’s “I signed the Lilly Ledbetter Act”, and Romney’s “I once hired some women.” Romney’s answer just seemed so _trivial_. Not to mention that he sounded like he’s patting himself on the back for discovering 1960s stereotypes of working women in 2003, after having been CEO of Bain for 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1054 "2012-10-18T03:04:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Just keep the goddam things, they mean that much to you! I cannot see throwing an entire modestly progressive agenda into the wood chipper just to pick a fight with ballistic fetishists. At this point in time, any gun control legislation, or even a hint thereof, is a political suicide note. Might as well wrap the keys to the White House in gift paper and have them delivered to whichever of Mitt’s houses seems most appropriate. > > I certainly respect other views on this, there are other cases to be made. But for me, a fight you can’t win that costs you everything else is a fight to avoid. This is what smart Democrats have concluded, which is why Obama hasn’t seriously pursued gun control during his administration. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1055 "2012-10-18T03:04:29Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > This is not meant to be a value judgement by the way - but broadly from this campaign I thought the basis of R was that “when I do well, I contribute to the economy and pull everyone else up” while for D it is “when the economy and the people around me are doing well, they will pull me along” There is some truth to this, but I have to say that it’s badly-phrased. The Republican Ideal is that as the rich get richer, they spend money and invest in businesses they don’t own and, maybe, pay a few taxes here and there, and everyone gets something out of that. If the economy is bad, give more to the rich and let the economy disburse it to the rest of the country in a fair, free-market fashion. They view social safety nets as being counter-productive as they claim they engender dependency on the government, yet being dependent on your employer for basic healthcare is how the free market is supposed to work. The Democratic Ideal is that the government spreads wealth around because when you trust the rich to do that, you end up with the Reagan Eighties when the wealth disparity (the gap between how much the rich have and how much everyone else has) grows massively, showing that the Republican Ideal is not how it works in the [del]Reality-Based Community[/del] real world. So you institute a system of progressive taxation to fund social safety nets which help the people who end up out of work when the economy gets bad. That way, everyone contributes to their society, the society that enabled them to prosper in the first place, and everyone benefits. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1056 "2012-10-18T03:18:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You clearly spent awhile looking at that cite. It wasn’t the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss it in detail, start another one and I’ll jump in when I have time. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Democrats aren’t clamoring for people to vote their economic interests. Sure they do. Have you ever heard of “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” Democrats love that book. It’s all about “Those poor Kansasans (Kansans? Kansasians? Kansasites?) are getting duped by the Republicans on guns and abortion. If they’d just vote for what’s good for them economically (my party), then Democrats would rule politics.” That’s what Obama’s campaign is all about: “I gave you guys x, y, and z. Romney wants to take away your government goodies, don’t vote for him.” ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1057 "2012-10-18T03:38:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How 'bout cause I’m a man? For real? I’ve one hundred percent legitimately have thought you were a middle-aged woman this entire time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1058 "2012-10-18T03:40:46Z")
Y’know, I don’t honestly have a problem with people voting for their own personal self-interest _or_ people voting for the good of everyone. It’s better if everyone does the latter, of course, but if we had that across the board, we wouldn’t even need government at all. So we create a system, democracy, that allows for people being selfish, and still works. But when people vote in ways that aren’t good for everyone, and also aren’t even good for themselves, that does serious damage. When we see people acting that way, we try to get them to switch to one of the views above. Either one would do, really, but the self-interest one seems like it ought to be an easier sell, so that’s what we emphasize. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1059 "2012-10-18T04:02:19Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > On _All Things Considered_ this afternoon, a reporter/commentator mentioned that President Obama not pursuing a continued Assault Weapons Ban was a disappointment to the pro-gun control people in his base. I thought _“They couldn’t possibly be more disappointed than the ANTI-gun control people.”_ > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m sorry, but I truly don’t unerstand this thought. I’m anti-gun control and I’m plenty disappointed in Obama (see the above list for starters). I hate having to spell out my zingers. It’s because the anti-gun control folks REALLY need to feel that their sky-is-falling fears of President Obama planing to confiscate their guns are validated, and President Obama didn’t even do a SINGLE thing to validate them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1060 "2012-10-18T04:30:36Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > For real? I’ve one hundred percent legitimately have thought you were a middle-aged woman this entire time. How many cats? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=54)