# The second presidential debate: 10/16/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847 "2012-10-16T04:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1061 "2012-10-18T05:17:04Z")
I’m a Democrat and I vote for my economic self interest. It’s in my economic interest that the Justice Dept made sure IBM didn’t maintain an effective monopoly on business mainframes and allowed the growth of the computer industry through innovation on a level playing field. When IBM developed the PC they followed the guidelines they were given and unbundled the hardware and software and allowed Microsoft to become one of the biggest businesses in the world. It was in my economic self interest when progressive states like California created a great system of public colleges that seeded Silicon Valley with highly trained engineers. It was in my economic self interest when ARPA/DARPA funded the development of the Internet, and gave research grants to CMU that led to the development of the kernel of the MacIntosh OS, and funded research into new algorithms for search engines that later turned into Google. It’s in my economic interest that the female half of the population gained equal access to education and doubled our supply of trained workers. It would be in my economic interest if when I was laid off I wasn’t saddled with healthcare insurance rates of $600/mos at the very time I couldn’t afford them, or if potential entrepreneurs could leave their job and start a new business without worrying that they not be able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions. It’d be in my economic self interest if medical costs in the US were in line with the rest of the world that manages to pay less, cover more people, and have equal or better results. It’d be in my economic self interest if the US once again invested in infrastructure projects on the scale of the Hoover Dam and the TVA. Imagine if every business and household had ultra-fast access to the Internet over fiber and WiFi was more widely available. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1062 "2012-10-18T05:23:07Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I hate having to spell out my zingers. > > It’s because the anti-gun control folks REALLY need to feel that their sky-is-falling fears of President Obama planing to confiscate their guns are validated, and President Obama didn’t even do a SINGLE thing to validate them. Seriously? i gave you a whole list of things (with cites) that he’s done validate them. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1063 "2012-10-18T05:30:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But when people vote in ways that aren’t good for everyone, and also aren’t even good for themselves, that does serious damage. When we see people acting that way, we try to get them to switch to one of the views above. Either one would do, really, but the self-interest one seems like it ought to be an easier sell, so that’s what we emphasize. You don’t really think Republicans see themselves as voting against their own interests _and_ society’s generally, do you? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1064 "2012-10-18T05:47:32Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I would just like to point out that I have a reasonably good mix of liberals and conservatives on my Facebook list, and nobody on there is talking about this whole “acts of terror” vs. “terrorism” thing at all. Not even a little bit. Seriously, nobody cares. Romney looked like a tool on this topic during the debate. No amount of semantic nitpicking after the fact is going to change that. That’s how these things go. Just quoting this because that’s what I’m seeing, too. All this nit-picking that people are doing here is just not what the voters are concerned about. And if Right-wing Rove-followers spend the next few weeks screaming “Acts OF terrorism = Obama conspiracy!!!” … then they’ll be ignoring The Issues That Count At The Ballot Box. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1065 "2012-10-18T07:03:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t really think Republicans see themselves as voting against their own interests _and_ society’s generally, do you? I would think the point is that no, they don’t see themselves doing it, yet they do it anyway, not realizing it is against their own interests. I doubt you, or most Republicans, would agree. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1066 "2012-10-18T07:46:24Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I would think the point is that no, they don’t see themselves doing it, yet they do it anyway, not realizing it is against their own interests. I doubt you, or most Republicans, would agree. You think you’re better-positioned to decide what’s in their best interest than they are? ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1067 "2012-10-18T07:57:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think you’re better-positioned to decide what’s in their best interest than they are? I won’t speak for the other poster but I’m sure he is considering the state of the South. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1068 "2012-10-18T08:56:22Z")
Summing up, I’d say Romney did a magnificent job in spite of some of the most biased moderating it’s been my misfortune to see. [Examples of Ms Crowley’s fairness](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/17/curl-crowley-skews-hard-obama-disastrous-debate/) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1069 "2012-10-18T10:20:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think you’re better-positioned to decide what’s in their best interest than they are? The fact is average household income is higher for all classes under Democrats than under Republicans, except for the very rich (who do equally well under either party’s leadership). In fact, under Democrats, every economic indicator does better. There is simply no economic reason to vote for Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1070 "2012-10-18T10:36:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The fact is average household income is higher for all classes under Democrats than under Republicans, except for the very rich (who do equally well under either party’s leadership). In fact, under Democrats, every economic indicator does better. > > There is simply no economic reason to vote for Republicans. cite? And how do you account for [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-23/u-s-incomes-feel-more-in-recovery-sentier-says.html): > [@](#): > > Median household income fell 4.8 percent on an inflation- adjusted basis since the recession ended in June 2009, more than the 2.6 percent drop during the 18-month contraction, the research firm’s Gordon Green and John Coder wrote in a report today. **Household income is 7.2 percent below the December 2007 level** , the former Census Bureau economic statisticians wrote. > > “Almost every group is worse off than it was three years ago, and some groups had very large declines in income,” Green, who previously directed work on the Census Bureau’s income and poverty statistics program, said in a phone interview today. “We’re in an unprecedented period of economic stagnation.” It looks to me like we had higher household incomes under Bush than Obama. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1071 "2012-10-18T10:41:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It looks to me like we had higher household incomes under Bush than Obama. Are you aware of some severe economic changes that occurred between December 2007 and January 2009? It was in all the papers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1072 "2012-10-18T10:52:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It wasn’t the topic of this thread. If you want to discuss it in detail, start another one and I’ll jump in when I have time. No, no, please do go ahead. When you don’t have the time or energy to figure out what a cite is about, the last thing we want is for you to keep your opinions about the cite to yourself. Nothing’s better than an ignorant unsupported opinion thrown out there, except maybe a defense of such behavior. I, however, lack your confidence in the supreme quality of my uninformed opinions. To wit: because I’ve not read _What’s the Matter with Kansas_, I don’t consider myself qualified to address your review of that book, or its relevance to the Democratic party’s central principles. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1073 "2012-10-18T10:56:04Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Are you aware of some severe economic changes that occurred between December 2007 and January 2009? It was in all the papers. See, that’s Obama’s fault too because the markets were reacting to the fix being in for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1074 "2012-10-18T10:59:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You think you’re better-positioned to decide what’s in their best interest than they are? Most of the Republicans that I know are voting against a Secret Socialist Muslim from Kenya. So, I would give extra points to anyone who is actually in touch with reality over those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1075 "2012-10-18T11:15:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, no, please do go ahead. When you don’t have the time or energy to figure out what a cite is about, the last thing we want is for you to keep your opinions about the cite to yourself. Geez, if it’ll shut you up, here’s your [cite](http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/08/07/is-gender-pay-gap-a-myth/): > [@](#): > > You can’t look at a very broad statistic that does not adjust for career choice, hours worked, etc and use it with integrity. When you start adjusting for more factors, the wage gap keeps closing to as little as 5%. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1076 "2012-10-18T11:22:42Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Are you aware of some severe economic changes that occurred between December 2007 and January 2009? It was in all the papers. Is that an admission that you don’t have a cite for “under Democrats, every economic indicator does better”? I’ll give you another one that’s been worse under Obama than Bush: [unemployment](http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:US&fdim_y=seasonality:S&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rate#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:S&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:US&ifdim=country&tstart=982479600000&tend=1347948000000&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false). Yes, I’m quite aware that the economy hit a rough patch a few years ago. That doesn’t excuse utterly unsupported claims like “under Democrats, every economic indicator does better.” ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1077 "2012-10-18T11:26:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > the economy hit a rough patch a few years ago. That doesn’t excuse utterly unsupported claims like “under Democrats, every economic indicator does better.” Is a rough patch anything like a bump in the road? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1078 "2012-10-18T11:31:33Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Is a rough patch anything like a bump in the road? Call it whatever you want, but please don’t make utterly unbelievable claims like “under Democrats, every economic indicator does better.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1079 "2012-10-18T11:40:31Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Geez, if it’ll shut you up, here’s your [cite](http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/08/07/is-gender-pay-gap-a-myth/): Nice, but it’s kind of a hilarious cite, inasmuch as it just goes further to demonstrate how little time you spent looking at the website you decided to trash earlier. If you want to stop embarrassing yourself, **go back and look at that website**. (Here’s a free hint: it ain’t all about the pay gap). That said, if you want to open a thread on the pay gap, instead of addressing the links offered in this thread, [here you go](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=604711). Edit: if your interest is in shutting me up on this issue, you could always try a sincere apology for spouting off about a cite you didn’t even bother to read, and a promise not to do so in the future. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1080 "2012-10-18T11:45:54Z")
I’ll leave it to \*\*Hentor \*\*to expand on his claims, but you must acknowledge that you’re minimizing the hardships of the economic disasters the Bush administration created by calling them “a rough patch,” much as you maximize the Obama administration’s casualness in referring to Benghazi as a “bump in the road.” I could justify Obama’s phrase simply by looking at the Middle East and our relationship with Arabic and Muslim cultures as one requiring centuries-long solutions, in which context the killing of four Americans does represent a bump in the road, but I can’t find a context that doesn’t handwave away the importance of the lives of all Americans now living in calling the Bush economic catastrophe that Obama has certainly improved in 3 and 1/2 years a mere “rough patch.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=55)