# The second presidential debate: 10/16/2012 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847 "2012-10-16T04:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1081 "2012-10-18T12:01:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > cite? Household income: historical > **[Bartels\_Partisan%20Politics.pdf](https://www.russellsage.org/sites/all/files/u4/Bartels_Partisan%20Politics.pdf)** > > 95.80 KB Household income: Bush versus Obama (to address your claims) Census data: [http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/](http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/) Change in mean household income (in 2011 constant dollars) by income groups … lowest…second…third…fourth…fifth…top 5 percent 2009-2011 … -874 … -1474 … -2098… -2436 … -1122 … 1709 2001-2008 …-701 … -1521 …-1788 …-1595 … -6753 … -23039 Average across all five income groups (excluding top 5%) under Obama: -1,601 Average across all five income groups (excluding top 5%) under Bush: -2,471 Only Republicans favor poorer economic performance by their leaders. Other sources: General review of all indicators: > **[สล็อตทรูวอเลท เล่นได้ไม่มีขั้นต่ำ ฝากถอนรวดเร็วทันใจ 30 วินาที](https://eriposte.com)** > > คาสิโนออนไลน์ สล็อตทรูวอเลท ให้คุณได้เล่นเกมสล็อตที่ชื่นชอบ เว็บตรง แตกบ่อย แตกหนักแบบจัดเต็ม หนึ่งในเกมเดิมพันออนไลน์ที่สามารถทำกำไรได้มากที่สุด Specific to stock market: > **[Democrats better for Wall Street than Republicans, research shows](https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2012/aug/29/democrats-better-wall-street-republicans)** > > Larry Elliott: Analysis of stock market returns under every president since 1900 shows Democrats do almost twice as well as Republicans on average Specific to jobs: > **[Bill Clinton says Democratic presidents top Republican presidents in job...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/sep/06/bill-clinton/bill-clinton-says-democratic-presidents-top-republ/)** > > Are Democratic presidents better than Republican presidents at job creation? Former President Bill Clinton said so -- fo > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And how do you account for [this](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-23/u-s-incomes-feel-more-in-recovery-sentier-says.html). Typical cherry picking. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It looks to me like we had higher household incomes under Bush than Obama. It looks like Bush put us in the shitter. Bush lost more in average household income than Obama has, while Obama has also had to work at digging us out of the shitfest. Do you really want to return to Bush economic policies? Why? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1082 "2012-10-18T12:02:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you want to stop embarrassing yourself, **go back and look at that website**. > > (Here’s a free hint: it ain’t all about the pay gap). I’m aware of that and was shortly after I first looked at the site/cite. I never claimed it was “all about” anything. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1083 "2012-10-18T12:08:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > site/cite Does this mean you’re as thorough about using the English language as you are about your sourcing of information? “Whatever, you folks check out my shit for me–I’m far too lazy and unmotivated to see if I’m anywhere near where I’m claiming”? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1084 "2012-10-18T12:10:03Z")
Here’s a more direct link to the figure that is relevant from my first link above: [Inequality and American Democracy — Crooked Timber](http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/16/inequality-and-american-democracy/) ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1085 "2012-10-18T12:11:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Call it whatever you want, but please don’t make utterly unbelievable claims like “under Democrats, every economic indicator does better.” Does [this](http://www.coba.unr.edu/econ/wp/papers/UNRECONWP06008.pdf)make the claim more believable? That paper is summarized [here](http://survivalandprosperity.com/2011/04/13/democrats-or-republicans-better-for-economy/). A few key excerpts: The University of Nevada-Reno economics professor also uncovered the following while conducting the economic comparison between Republican and Democratic presidential administrations from 1949 to 2005: • Unemployment Rate- Republicans 6.0%, Democrats 5.2% • Change In Unemployment Rate- Republicans +0.3%, Democrats -0.4% • Growth of Multifactor Productivity- Republicans 0.9%, Democrats 1.7% • Corporate Profits (share of GDP)- Republicans 8.8%, Democrats 10.2% • Real Value of Dow Jones Index- Republicans 4.3%, Democrats 5.4% (in logarithmic growth rates)- Republicans 2.8%, Democrats 4.4% • Real Weekly Earnings- Republicans 0.3%, Democrats 1.0% • CPI Inflation Rate- Republicans 3.8%, Democrats 3.8% These results prompted Dr. Parker to conclude that “the economy has grown significantly faster under Democratic administrations, and more than twice as fast in per-capita terms.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1086 "2012-10-18T12:15:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Typical cherry picking. Your source strikes me as the extreme example of cherry picking. Look at the starting years for the various metrics. They’re all over the map: 1953, '62, '47, '48, '30, '27, 1900, and 1995. The ending dates are similarly varied: 2001, 2004, 2000, 1998. Looks to me like he’s cherry-picking the data he wants to reach a pre-determined result. But that misses a larger point which is that you claimed “The fact is average household income is higher for all classes under Democrats than under Republicans, except for the very rich (who do equally well under either party’s leadership).” I’ll grant you that it might be true for certain cherry-picked date ranges, but it’s not true in _all_ cases. I cited one that disproves this broad-brush statements: our most recent two presidents. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1087 "2012-10-18T12:17:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Summing up, I’d say Romney did a magnificent job in spite of some of the most biased moderating it’s been my misfortune to see. I wrote about my opinion of the various debate questions in an earlier post here, and didn’t see any overall bias to either candidate in the choice of the questions, so I don’t have anything more to say about this. But I _love_ this from your link: > [@](#): > > At Question Two, Mr. Obama, asked by Mr. Romney how much he had cut federal oil permits, took over the floor — with Ms. Crowley’s silent approval. Well, of course he “took over the floor.” If Romney didn’t want him to do that, he shouldn’t have asked Obama a question in the first place. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1088 "2012-10-18T12:19:30Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I can’t find a context that doesn’t handwave away the importance of the lives of all Americans now living in calling the Bush economic catastrophe that Obama has certainly improved in 3 and 1/2 years a mere “rough patch.” I wasn’t intending to minimize the economic hardships we’ve been through over the last few years, but I don’t think it’s accurate to label it “the Bush economic catastrophe”, and I’ve already given two metrics by which Obama has certainly NOT improved it: unemployment and median household income. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1089 "2012-10-18T12:22:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Do you really want to return to Bush economic policies? Why? No, I want to move forward from Obama economic policies to Romney economic policies. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1090 "2012-10-18T12:31:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Your source strikes me as the extreme example of cherry picking. Look at the starting years for the various metrics. They’re all over the map: 1953, '62, '47, '48, '30, '27, 1900, and 1995. The ending dates are similarly varied: 2001, 2004, 2000, 1998. Looks to me like he’s cherry-picking the data he wants to reach a pre-determined result. Look, if you aren’t even going to try to understand what you’re reading, this isn’t going to work very well. There’s a pretty basic reason why the years vary: THAT’S WHEN THE PARTICULAR DATA WAS AVAILABLE. It’s the opposite of cherry picking when you include all available data. Furthermore, if the data extended further back into the Truman, FDR and Hoover years in all cases, or forward into the Bush years, do you think that would hurt the argument? Uh, that data would come from the two worst economic collapses in a century, both of which occurred under Republicans. Do you not get this? > [@](#): > > But that misses a larger point which is that you claimed “The fact is average household income is higher for all classes under Democrats than under Republicans, except for the very rich (who do equally well under either party’s leadership).” I’ll grant you that it might be true for certain cherry-picked date ranges, but it’s not true in _all_ cases. I cited one that disproves this broad-brush statements: our most recent two presidents. You didn’t read the first link or the more direct one in my follow up post. Taking all available data, the average household income is higher for all classes under Democrats. Look at the figure. It’s not even close. Please think this over and then respond. I would appreciate your thoughtful consideration and feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1091 "2012-10-18T12:33:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I want to move forward from Obama economic policies to Romney economic policies. Even Romney can’t say where he differs from Bush. He was asked this directly in the debate. (By the way, the things he did name? They were also stated Bush policies as well. Just so you know.) His plan is to do Bush to the next power. God help us all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1092 "2012-10-18T12:34:26Z")
Ah, and aren’t Romney’s economic policies merely a new spin on trickle down? I believe that the new trope is that it’s about “job creators”, yes? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1093 "2012-10-18T12:35:14Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Does this mean you’re as thorough about using the English language as you are about your sourcing of information? “Whatever, you folks check out my shit for me–I’m far too lazy and unmotivated to see if I’m anywhere near where I’m claiming”? I’m well aware of the distinct meanings of the word cite and site. It was just a bit of a pun, given that the cite in this case was a webSITE. I did check out the provided link. I never claimed that it was “all about” any one thing though, which is apparently what I’m being accused of. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1094 "2012-10-18T12:37:16Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Summing up, I’d say Romney did a magnificent job in spite of some of the most biased moderating it’s been my misfortune to see. > > [Examples of Ms Crowley’s fairness](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/17/curl-crowley-skews-hard-obama-disastrous-debate/) You poor, poor conservatives- always being picked on by liberals, the liberal media, and reality. It must be nice, though; when you succeed, it’s because you earned it… but when you fail, _it’s always someone else’s fault_ (and bill to pick up). Seriously, do you guys \*ever \*stop whining? ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1095 "2012-10-18T12:37:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I want to move forward from Obama economic policies to Romney economic policies. Even Mittens refused to answer how his administration would be different on economic policies from GWB, so I guess you are looking to move forward by moving backwards. Interesting approach. [One of many links I can cite to back this up.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/mitt-romney-is-not-george-bush-hes-george-bush-lite/2012/10/17/b7e3ce3a-1887-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_blog.html) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1096 "2012-10-18T12:37:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > No, I want to move forward from Obama economic policies to Romney economic policies. The Romney policies are indistinguishable from every other Republican: Cut taxes on the [heavenly choir/] _Job Creators_ [/heavenly choir], gut regulation, drill baby drill, and slash the societal safety net. It’s “I got mine, fuck you, and get the fuck out of the way” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1097 "2012-10-18T12:43:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ll grant you that it might be true for certain cherry-picked date ranges, but it’s not true in _all_ cases. I cited one that disproves this broad-brush statements: our most recent two presidents. I’m sorry, I just wanted to come back to this because I overlooked it before. a) The data I showed was cumulative across all available data points. b) The data you showed compared only the very last Bush years to Obama. In fact, it went back to 2007 as the comparison point for some reason. I don’t think you know what the term “cherry picking” means. What you’ve done is the very definition of the term. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1098 "2012-10-18T12:52:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Yes, really. :dubious: No, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1099 "2012-10-18T13:02:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, no, please do go ahead. When you don’t have the time or energy to figure out what a cite is about, the last thing we want is for you to keep your opinions about the cite to yourself. Nothing’s better than an ignorant unsupported opinion thrown out there, except maybe a defense of such behavior. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847/1100 "2012-10-18T13:04:41Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > Even Mittens refused to answer how his administration would be different on economic policies from GWB, so I guess you are looking to move forward by moving backwards. > > Interesting approach. > > [One of many links I can cite to back this up.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/mitt-romney-is-not-george-bush-hes-george-bush-lite/2012/10/17/b7e3ce3a-1887-11e2-a346-f24efc680b8d_blog.html) I understand that they say quite a few similar things (after all, they are both Republicans), but there are real differences: Romney is proposing a tax reform plan quiet distinct from anything passed in the Bush years, and (while Bush and Obama have both _said_ that they’d reduce the deficit) he didn’t really reduce deficit spending. Romney promises he will (Whether it’s more Bush & Obama style campaign promises that won’t come to fruition will have to be seen). There are clearly some stated policy goals that are different as well: repeal ObamaCare, reform Medicare, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-presidential-debate-10-16-2012/637847.md?page=56)