# The second Scottish independence referendum **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 14, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529 "2016-10-14T17:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/1 "2016-10-14T17:41:19Z")
Since the last one was so much fun!: [SNP's Nicola Sturgeon announces new independence referendum bill - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/2 "2016-10-14T17:46:51Z")
The big question is the fall in the price of oil. Scotland stands a much better chance of being an independent country with high oil prices. I don’t think Scotland wants to join the EU, drop the Pound, adopt the Euro , and then be forced to grovel for a bailout similar to Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/3 "2016-10-14T17:53:05Z")
Serious question: is England subsidizing Scotland or vice versa? Even with oil prices remaining where they are (and assuming that the island independence movement to reclaim “their” oil doesn’t go anywhere), are they in as bad of a financial state as Greece? I’d assume, all other things being equal, that they would be similar to the UK in general. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/4 "2016-10-16T02:14:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Serious question: is England subsidizing Scotland or vice versa? Neither. The UK is running a budget deficit, and both in England and in Scotland (lets ignore Wales and Northern Ireland for simplicity; they are too small to affect the overall picture) public expenditure per capita exceeds revenue per capita. On Treasury figures, the per capita deficit is larger in Scotland than in England, but that largely depends on the Treasury accounting choice to allocate oil revenues neither to England nor to Scotland, but to a “national” category that they have invented for the purpose. Your Scot regards this as Sassenach duplicity; if oil revenues were allocated according to the waters where the oil reserves lie, then the Scottish deficit (per capita) is about the same as the English. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/5 "2016-10-16T02:33:43Z")
Brexit: First, nobody paid much attention. Then, it turned the world on its ear when Britain voted for it. Now, apparently, it will spell the end of the UK as we know it. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/6 "2016-10-16T09:14:00Z")
It’s just Nicola Sturgeon reminding everyone how important Nicola Sturgeon is, at the Nicola Sturgeon Conference. You get used to her in the end, so I’m advised. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/7 "2016-10-16T10:16:42Z")
I fully support this and if they leave and join the EU then I’d happily swap my UK passport for a Scottish one if they allow that. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/8 "2016-10-16T10:49:40Z")
“It marks the first step to holding a second vote.” Of course, it does no such thing. If another vote happens, it will have nothing to do with this bill, because only Westminster can allow another referendum. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/9 "2016-10-16T10:58:44Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > “It marks the first step to holding a second vote.” > > Of course, it does no such thing. If another vote happens, it will have nothing to do with this bill, because only Westminster can allow another referendum. If the bill passes and westminister refuses to hold another referendum that will lead to a massive amount of outrage and court cases. If the bill passes another referendum will happen, eventually, the most westminister could do would be do delay it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/10 "2016-10-16T10:59:57Z")
To have a second referendum would require an Act of Parliament, and that’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/11 "2016-10-16T11:15:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > To have a second referendum would require an Act of Parliament, and that’s not going to happen. The Scottish Labour party might want to have a word with you. If Parliament refuses then you can expect a massive swing towards the SNP in the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy\_Biro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Cliffy\_Biro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy_Biro)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/12 "2016-10-16T12:55:24Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > On Treasury figures, the per capita deficit is larger in Scotland than in England, but that largely depends on the Treasury accounting choice to allocate oil revenues neither to England nor to Scotland, but to a “national” category that they have invented for the purpose. Your Scot regards this as Sassenach duplicity; Well, some Scots do, nationalist ones, although I’m not sure how many of them would use a corny word like “Sassenach.” It’s really a tautology. If you believe in an independent Scotland then naturally it seems right that oil in Scottish waters belongs to Scotland. If you believe in Scotland as part of the UK then the oil belongs to the UK as a whole. I’d say that Scotland gets a good deal out of tax redistribution. It is a middle-income region by overall UK standards, but gets redistribution as if it were one of the poorer ones like Wales or northern England. But the Scottish lobby is powerful and it can always raise the reasonably credible threat of independence, unlike other regions. Not sure why Wales is dismissed so readily, by the way. Population of three million vs five million in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/13 "2016-10-16T13:09:30Z")
> [@Cliffy\_Biro](#): > > Not sure why Wales is dismissed so readily, by the way. Population of three million vs five million in Scotland. Well I’m half Welsh so I can say this. I think it’s partly because the ex-pat scots and scottish decendents are usually very proud of their heritage and can point to a strong scottish culture. Whiskey, Fighting the English again and again, kilts, bagpipes, etc etc. Wales is famous for sheep, coal mines and… ok having some “mountains” which would be called hills in any other country. There’s really just not that much to be proud of. Wales voted No for it’s own assembly in 1979 then barely scraped a yes vote in 1997. It also of course doesn’t have any off shore oil reserves (ok maybe thats the real reason). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/14 "2016-10-16T13:27:54Z")
Is the legal situation one reason? i.e. that Wales is technically more integrated with England than Scotland is? As an outsider I don’t know how much that would matter if there were a huge independence movement in Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/15 "2016-10-16T13:52:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I fully support this and if they leave and join the EU then I’d happily swap my UK passport for a Scottish one if they allow that. Has the Spanish position in regards to this changed at all? I was under the impression that they didn’t want to give the Catalonians any ideas and were against Scotland joining the EU if they split off from the UK. On the other hand, Brexit may have caused them to rethink this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/16 "2016-10-16T14:10:26Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Is the legal situation one reason? i.e. that Wales is technically more integrated with England than Scotland is? As an outsider I don’t know how much that would matter if there were a huge independence movement in Wales. There are a lot of reasons, but yes, that’s critical. Welsh law was abolished in a way that Scottish law never was. The chance of an independent Wales is, to my mind, approximately the same as the chance of an independent Navajo Nation. I’d support both, but practically it’s a non-started. Scotland has a historically and geographically stronger case. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/17 "2016-10-16T14:23:41Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > The Scottish Labour party might want to have a word with you. If Parliament refuses then you can expect a massive swing towards the SNP in the next election. There was already a massive swing to the SNP in 2015. There can’t be any more swing to the SNP. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/18 "2016-10-16T14:44:11Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > Has the Spanish position in regards to this changed at all? I was under the impression that they didn’t want to give the Catalonians any ideas and were against Scotland joining the EU if they split off from the UK. On the other hand, Brexit may have caused them to rethink this. Possibly. But we’re dealing with all sorts of hypotheticals. At the very least it seems highly improbable that the Spanish would agree to _both_ re-admitting an independent Scotland _and_ allowing it to retain all the opt-outs and special arrangements already given to the UK - i.e., they might have to adopt the euro. And then there’s the Schengen agreement. Ireland has an opt-out in order to maintain the common travel area with the UK, which is essential to maintain open borders with Northern Ireland: but would the other EU members be in a mood to give Scotland the same concession? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/19 "2016-10-16T14:56:23Z")
Does Scotland really want those concessions? Wouldn’t they be pretty happy to be both out of the UK and wholly in the EU? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529/20 "2016-10-16T15:18:57Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Does Scotland really want those concessions? Wouldn’t they be pretty happy to be both out of the UK and wholly in the EU? If the rUK leaves the schengen area and Scotland stays in the EU then there would have to be immigration at the Scottish border. I guess that’s something every one wants to try and avoid. But yes I don’t see any way they’d get admitted to the EU without agreeing to adopt the Euro. They’d probably have a five year period to change over but it would be a condition. But in practise if that happened I guess you’d just see dual pricing in pounds and euros and most shops would accept both. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-scottish-independence-referendum/768529.md?page=2)