# The Second Stone is a piece of shit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445 "2014-09-14T01:07:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/141 "2014-09-14T22:07:32Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > . It’s about the fact that the woman in this case was simply not a threat to Ray Rice – COULD not be a threat unless she had a knife in her hand – and yet he chose to punch her in the face with enough force to knock her down (and quite possibly with enough force to knock her out). Yes, but you’re dodging the question. If it had been a MAN (not a boy), and he punched the man, would anybody say he used “too much force”? I’ve never heard of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/142 "2014-09-14T22:09:11Z")
Ok, sidebar discussion among the non-psychos in this thread: I’m thinking that **Killing Time** is a bigger piece of human garbage than **TSS**. Any disagreement there? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/143 "2014-09-14T22:10:16Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > This brings up a question though. How is it clear that HE made a fist? I’ve carefully watched the video several times. You cannot see anything but a blur when he strikes her. And now that I look at it again, he does not punch her in the face; it looks like he slaps the side of her head, pushing her head to the right. If he had punched her, she would have fallen backwards, not to the right. Then she immediately hits her head on the metal railing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he didn’t knock her out. He pushed her over and the railing knocked her out. My God, you’re right. There was a second puncher. Where’s the Zapruder film?! ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/144 "2014-09-14T22:13:01Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > Nope, what I am saying is that we need to remember the weight and skill class. I’m not speaking in absolutes. There are hypothetical times where a man can hit a woman in self defense. However, I don’t buy for a second that that was the only option Ray Rice had. He’s bigger, stronger, is better at physical violence, and more importantly he _knows_ that. O.K., well I thought you were speaking of a greater generality, as your anecdote seemed to suggest. Rice had plenty of options, starting with NOT spitting in her face. I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/145 "2014-09-14T22:14:01Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > My God, you’re right. There was a second puncher. Where’s the Zapruder film?! Wow, are you ever fucking dense. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/146 "2014-09-14T22:16:36Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > … Are you saying Rice timed his punch perfectly and did some geometric calculations to ensure that her head would hit the railing as she fell? If I _was_ saying that, then I \*would have _fucking said it_. \*He intended to punch his fiance in her face and he did. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/147 "2014-09-14T22:16:56Z")
The point was that a typical man wouldn’t be as weak as Janay Rice. It would have to be a special case – I don’t think men should punch cancer patients, either. A 14 year old is a reasonable male analogue in terms of physical strength for a typical adult woman. Demanding that one compare the situation to a normal, adult male attacker warps what happened. For instance, I am significantly weaker than Ray Rice, but if I attacked him and he made no serious effort to defend himself, I could still seriously injure him with my bare hands. That’s not the case with his wife. All he has to do is cover up and maybe grab her arms. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/148 "2014-09-14T22:17:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, sidebar discussion among the non-psychos in this thread: I’m thinking that **Killing Time** is a bigger piece of human garbage than **TSS**. Any disagreement there? No disagreement. I’m even starting to think he’s a sockpuppet. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/149 "2014-09-14T22:19:37Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Or someone who looks at the exact same thing you do and sees something entirely different. We know that already captain obvious (It is also obvious that you will lie to yourself, as I pointed before I did point at the longer video early and you claimed later that you got only silence when you demanded evidence of the spitting). What it is obvious too is that many others that saw the better quality video arrived to the opposite conclusion that you have, they saw Ray spitting and punching his then fiancée that only slapped him and concluded that Ray was the one that did the very appalling thing. (And the information I saw is that the video leaked came from some former worker at the hotel that used a cell phone to record the original security digital video, the ones in the SDMB claiming that the video is not clear have to deal with what the witnesses that were interviewed said.) The reality is that you are still ignoring that ESPN **is not a fixture of your imagination** , and neither is the fact that reporter John Barr interviewed the people that worked at the hotel and got to confirm what they saw either in person or in the original higher quality security video. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/150 "2014-09-14T22:22:33Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > Wow, are you ever fucking dense. I’m not the one who’s dense, you idiot. I find it absurd that you think think whether or not he made a fist is important. You _can_ knock somebody senseless with the ball of your hand. The dudes a running back in the NFL. I’m pretty sure he knows how to hit defenders hard in the helmet without using a fist (It woud break his fingers for one thing). Close fist or not, it sure as hell wasn’t just a slap. Also you’re trying to blame the railing. She wouldn’t have hit the railing if she wasn’t hit. Finally, learn to multiquote. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/151 "2014-09-14T22:22:45Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > This brings up a question though. How is it clear that HE made a fist? I’ve carefully watched the video several times. You cannot see anything but a blur when he strikes her. And now that I look at it again, he does not punch her in the face; it looks like he slaps the side of her head, pushing her head to the right. If he had punched her, she would have fallen backwards, not to the right. Then she immediately hits her head on the metal railing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he didn’t knock her out. He pushed her over and the railing knocked her out. Again, I’m not defending anyone, but it really looks like a lot of it was accidental. > > Then as to him “callously dragging” her out of the elevator, I don’t see that either. I see him try to pick her up by reaching around her torso, which looks like a natural way you would try to lift someone who is unconscious (like as opposed to grabbing her ankles, or her head). Then it looks like he tries to grab the purse, and the elevator doors close, so then he has to pick her up more abruptly to beat the doors closing again. She’s face down at first, but then he tries to sit her up. I just don’t understand how everyone is so sure they can read his state of mind from watching that. It’s just as likely to me it’s a guy thinking, “Oh shit! My fiance is knocked out. I have to get her off the elevator.” than “I hate this bitch and I’m gonna drag her around like a rag doll.” I’d love to hear your opinion on the moon landing too. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/152 "2014-09-14T22:25:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, sidebar discussion among the non-psychos in this thread: I’m thinking that **Killing Time** is a bigger piece of human garbage than **TSS**. Any disagreement there? I think “piece of human garbage” = not drinking the Kool Aid. I was hoping one of you mouth-breathers would call me a name. I will wear it as a badge of honor. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/153 "2014-09-14T22:27:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d love to hear your opinion on the moon landing too. I think the moon landing really happened, despite a bunch of idiots claiming it didn’t based on their lack of critical thinking skills. Now, would you care to disprove any specific thing I wrote, or shall I take it that you’ve got nothing? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/154 "2014-09-14T22:29:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > She didn’t throw anything resembling a punch at him in the hallway - her hand was open, not clenched, and even so barely grazed him if she touched him at all - and I don’t see anything that is clearly a punch by her in the elevator either. > > Honestly, for you to be misrepresenting this the way you are doesn’t indicate you are “seeing something different,” it indicates some severe kind of mental defect. Seeing what you want to see is sadly not all that uncommon. He’s simply ignoring all evidence that runs counter to his own opinion. What’s disgusting is what opinion he has deemed so valuable that he must hold to it at all costs: the one that the guy had to have had his “reasons” to respond the way he did. He’s falling all over himself to defend the guy. And what’s weird is that we’re having to explain to a lawyer the problems with that line of reasoning. Do they no longer teach rhetorical skills in law school? When you know that everyone is against your opinion, you don’t take a complete 180. Surely they covered how to convince a hostile audience, as this was discussed in my high school speech class. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/155 "2014-09-14T22:32:11Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > I think “piece of human garbage” = not drinking the Kool Aid. I was hoping one of you mouth-breathers would call me a name. I will wear it as a badge of honor. One should learn first who was getting it wrong all along. Again, the blur you see is not the original video, AFAIK the police and the NFL have the higher quality one that security workers at the hotel reported to ESPN to see many times. They reported that Ray did indeed spit first and followed her to the elevator to spit her again and the early slap of her as the result of his spitting shows that she wanted to do the same to him in the elevator, but Ray escalated the incident. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/156 "2014-09-14T22:32:14Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > I’m not the one who’s dense, you idiot. I find it absurd that you think think whether or not he made a fist is important. Follow threads much? I didn’t say it was important, magellan01 [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730666&postcount=122](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730666&postcount=122) and colibri [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730706&postcount=127](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730706&postcount=127) think it’s important. They seem to attach a lot of significance to whether or not a fist was formed, yet there is no evidence one way or the other. Get it yet? Learning is fun, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/157 "2014-09-14T22:32:22Z")
> [@Killing\_Time](#): > > This brings up a question though. How is it clear that HE made a fist? I’ve carefully watched the video several times. You cannot see anything but a blur when he strikes her. And now that I look at it again, he does not punch her in the face; it looks like he slaps the side of her head, pushing her head to the right. If he had punched her, she would have fallen backwards, not to the right. Then she immediately hits her head on the metal railing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he didn’t knock her out. He pushed her over and the railing knocked her out. Again, I’m not defending anyone, but it really looks like a lot of it was accidental. > > Then as to him “callously dragging” her out of the elevator, I don’t see that either. I see him try to pick her up by reaching around her torso, which looks like a natural way you would try to lift someone who is unconscious (like as opposed to grabbing her ankles, or her head). Then it looks like he tries to grab the purse, and the elevator doors close, so then he has to pick her up more abruptly to beat the doors closing again. She’s face down at first, but then he tries to sit her up. I just don’t understand how everyone is so sure they can read his state of mind from watching that. It’s just as likely to me it’s a guy thinking, “Oh shit! My fiance is knocked out. I have to get her off the elevator.” than “I hate this bitch and I’m gonna drag her around like a rag doll.” You’re just as mentally defective as **The Second Stone.** ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/158 "2014-09-14T22:36:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re just as mentally defective as **The Second Stone.** But I’m betting \*\*TSS \*\*at least has opposable thumbs. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/159 "2014-09-14T22:36:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > One should learn first who was getting it wrong all along. Again, the blur you see is not the original video, AFAIK the police and the NFL have the higher quality one that security workers at the hotel reported to ESPN that Ray did indeed spit first and followed her to the elevator to spit her again and the early slap of her as the result of his spitting shows that she wanted to do the same to him in the elevator, but Ray escalated the incident. Hmmm…I think you may be retarded. The ONLY think I was referring to when I mentioned the blur was whether or not he formed a fist, which OTHER people in this thread seem to think is some sort of evidence. I already acknowledged the spitting here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730538&postcount=118](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17730538&postcount=118) and said that I think he was at fault for the incident. I must say, your thinking is not very nuanced. I also question that there is a “higher quality video” of the elevator footage. Gonna need a cite for that, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Killing\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@Killing\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Killing_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445/160 "2014-09-14T22:39:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re just as mentally defective as **The Second Stone.** Would you care to disprove anything I wrote, or shall I assume that you too have nothing? Did you even look at the video? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-second-stone-is-a-piece-of-shit/698445.md?page=9)