# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/181 "2014-12-10T16:23:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The scenario is: you receive extremely credible information that a gathering of al-Qaeda/ISIS people are in such-and-such location, and/or that such-and-such location is a military installation, so you bomb them. No civilians are inadvertently killed. However, your targets are deliberately killed. You’ve decided that the deliberate killing of these people is justified because of the even greater harm that might come about if they were not killed. There’s also a non-zero chance that your information is wrong, and these people are not terrorists or enemy soldiers, and it’s not a military installation. And even if they are, there’s a non-zero chance that your attack will not lessen the death of any innocent people. And there’s also a non-zero chance that you could have accomplished the same end by other means. But yet, everyone seems to accept that this is justified. > > Question is: how is this morally different than if you seized and tortured these very same people, based on the exact same information, and with the same likelihood of accomplishing the exact same end? Here is your scenario. In this scenario, the “end” is “dead terrorists” The terrorists were killed to stop THOSE TERRORISTS from killing and/or terrorizing again. That was the “end” of the means of “bomb[ing] them” You can, in fact, accomplish the same “end” by capturing them. At that point, torturing them does not help you accomplish the same “end” because you have already accomplished it. You would be torturing them for no reason. If you would like to change your scenario to something that torture MAY help, or COULD BE justified, I invite you to try again. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/182 "2014-12-10T16:27:58Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > 1. It’s not torture. I’m not willing to say exactly what torture \*really \*is, but this ain’t it. > > 2. The other side does it, so it’s okay if we do it. > > 3. This report was just released to distract from that guy’s testimony on Obummercare. > > 4. It’s okay, 'cause liberals would just give the terrorists milk and cookies to get the information. > > 5. Despite what the report says, we got usable information, so it’s okay. > > 6. Some liberal politicians signed off on it, so \*obviously \*the Left thinks torture is really okay. > > 7. Some kid was killed in a bomb blast, so torture really isn’t that bad. > > 8. Obama killed somebody with a drone strike, so why are you worried about enhanced interrogation, ya hypocrite? > > 9. Terrorists don’t get protection from the Bill of Rights, or they’re not a recognized enemy combatant, or some other type of legal hair-splitting, so it’s okay if we torture them. > > 10. Releasing this report may somehow lead to the death of some random American in some way… why do you hate America? > > That about cover it? Terr, is that you? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/183 "2014-12-10T16:29:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But in the case of leaders or operations people, whose role is in planning or facilitating, the terror or war that they’ve facilitated can be in the future even if they’ve already been captured. Their plans and their organizations can still be in place even after they’re locked up. When you’re torturing these people, it’s to gain info about their plans or organizations, based on the expectation that you expect these to be operational in the future. So what you’re doing is trying to prevent future harm, much as when you’re attacking and killing soldiers. Senior leaders of nationstate combatants are also basically planners/facilitators. Your entire argument also applies to them. Do you see making the same torture exception for military officers and senior non-commissioned officers that get captured? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/184 "2014-12-10T16:32:33Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > 1. It’s not torture. I’m not willing to say exactly what torture \*really \*is, but this ain’t it. From what I’ve read, the waterboarding and the anal feeding seem about the worst of it to me. And it’s not like the waterboarding is a new revelation. Maybe I’m jaded and watch too many movies, but being forced to stay standing and awake for days with loud music, seems like hazing instead of torture. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/185 "2014-12-10T16:33:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So what you’re doing is … trying to prevent future harm, much as when you’re attacking and killing soldiers. What you’re doing is … illegal. That’s the end of it. It’s not a tv drama for overcited young men, it’s real-life. Without the Rule of Law there is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/186 "2014-12-10T16:34:00Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Maybe I’m jaded and watch too many movies, but being forced to stay standing and awake for days with loud music, seems like hazing instead of torture. You assume that hazing cannot be torture? Seriously, man…sleep deprivation and stress positions are no joke. They break people. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/187 "2014-12-10T16:36:53Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Then ensure it stays completely illegal. If, by shear force of moral conviction you feel the need to torture someone, then you should be willing to stand trial for it. I see no brave moral agents standing up to say they’re willing to be tried in a court. In other words, the forgotten Jack Bauer defense 😛 Come on torturers! If you’re willing to be brave enough to torture someone you should be brave enough to admit it and stand trial for it. I’m looking at you Cheney ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/188 "2014-12-10T16:39:07Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Seriously, man…sleep deprivation and stress positions are no joke. They break people. Breaking people is the point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/189 "2014-12-10T16:41:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Breaking people is the point. That’s not exactly a point in the favor of these torture methods. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/190 "2014-12-10T16:42:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Sure. But acknowledging the practice and making it official policy to no longer engage in it seems to set a higher bar than not doing those things. I agree. But I don’t know if setting a “higher bar” is substantial. (Interesting to note that public support for torture has apparently gone up in recent years, which is the opposite of what I would have expected.) > [@Slash1972](#): > > Here is your scenario. In this scenario, the “end” is “dead terrorists” The terrorists were killed to stop THOSE TERRORISTS from killing and/or terrorizing again. That was the “end” of the means of “bomb[ing] them” > > You can, in fact, accomplish the same “end” by capturing them. At that point, torturing them does not help you accomplish the same “end” because you have already accomplished it. You would be torturing them for no reason. > > If you would like to change your scenario to something that torture MAY help, or COULD BE justified, I invite you to try again. No, I like my scenario just fine, thanks. You’re not torturing the terrorists for “no reason”. You’re torturing them to stop the plans they’ve been involved in planning from coming to fruition, or the terror groups they’ve been involved in building from continuing to function. > [@DinoR](#): > > Senior leaders of nationstate combatants are also basically planners/facilitators. Your entire argument also applies to them. Do you see making the same torture exception for military officers and senior non-commissioned officers that get captured? From a purely moral standpoint, yes. From a practical standpoint, no. The reason for many Geneva Convention rules and the like is because if one side does it the other side does it too, and a lot of people suffer and no one gets an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/191 "2014-12-10T16:42:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I would. I would not condone torture to save my own life (or anyone else’s). That’s repugnant and the very epitome of cowardly. _Hypothetical. \* With respect to the \* to save my own life (or anyone else’s)_ quoted above. Your 8 year old daughter has been kidnapped. She’s being held in an abandoned refrigerator. She has 10 minutes of air left. You have the kidnapper tied in a chair before you. It’s just you and him. He refuses to tell you where your daughter is being held, other than it’s only 5 minutes away. The kidnapper won’t talk. You have a butane torch. The phones are out, you can’t call for help. You have 5 minutes to save your daughters life. You’re the only option left for her. Whose life is more valuable, you daughter’s or the kidnapper’s? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/192 "2014-12-10T16:42:38Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > From what I’ve read, the waterboarding and the anal feeding seem about the worst of it to me. And it’s not like the waterboarding is a new revelation. > > Maybe I’m jaded and watch too many movies, but being forced to stay standing and awake for days with loud music, seems like hazing instead of torture. I never rushed a fraternity, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t involve standing for hours at a time on broken feet and legs, or dying of hypothermia while chained to a floor. Your college might’ve been a lot rougher than most, though. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/193 "2014-12-10T16:43:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Breaking people is the point. You don’t say. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/194 "2014-12-10T16:46:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > _Hypothetical. \* With respect to the \* to save my own life (or anyone else’s)_ quoted above. > > Your 8 year old daughter has been kidnapped. She’s being held in an abandoned refrigerator. She has 10 minutes of air left. You have the kidnapper tied in a chair before you. It’s just you and him. He refuses to tell you where your daughter is being held, other than it’s only 5 minutes away. The kidnapper won’t talk. You have a butane torch. The phones are out, you can’t call for help. You have 5 minutes to save your daughters life. You’re the only option left for her. > > Whose life is more valuable, you daughter’s or the kidnapper’s? I’m fairly certain you could spot an abandoned refrigerator that lay within a circle encompassing all points 5 minutes away from you without wasting time torturing a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/195 "2014-12-10T16:47:43Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > _Hypothetical. \* With respect to the \* to save my own life (or anyone else’s)_ quoted above. > > Your 8 year old daughter has been kidnapped. She’s being held in an abandoned refrigerator. She has 10 minutes of air left. You have the kidnapper tied in a chair before you. It’s just you and him. He refuses to tell you where your daughter is being held, other than it’s only 5 minutes away. The kidnapper won’t talk. You have a butane torch. The phones are out, you can’t call for help. You have 5 minutes to save your daughters life. You’re the only option left for her. > > Whose life is more valuable, you daughter’s or the kidnapper’s? Well, you \*think \*you’ve got the kidnapper, anyway. At least, that’s what the criminal the cops arrested months ago told you in exchange for a lighter sentence. He might actually be an innocent bystander or someone your informant doesn’t like, but hey, what’s a few innocent lives when your daughter’s only got minutes of air? Luckily you’ve got a basement full of potential kidnappers- eventually you’ll find the one who knows where your daughter is, right? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/196 "2014-12-10T16:49:25Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Well, you \*think \*you’ve got the kidnapper, anyway. At least, that’s what the criminal the cops arrested months ago told you in exchange for a lighter sentence. He might actually be an innocent bystander or someone your informant doesn’t like, but hey, what’s a few innocent lives when your daughter’s only got minutes of air? > > Luckily you’ve got a basement full of potential kidnappers- eventually you’ll find the one who knows where your daughter is, right? Reread it. He just told you she was 5 minutes away. He’s the kidnapper. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/197 "2014-12-10T16:49:49Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Whose life is more valuable, you daughter’s or the kidnapper’s? Speaking solely for myself, I would torture, murder, and otherwise destroy someone to protect my child in that hypothetical. I would nonetheless _still_ consider my actions to be repugnant, cowardly, and morally indefensible. Thank Kdapt that situation will never arise. There’s no “gotcha” here. I know that I am a weak, emotionally-driven, and deeply flawed human being. I know that I would compromise my ethics and my morality in some situations. But I strive to be better than that, and I want my fellow citizens and the government we have established to be better than that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/198 "2014-12-10T16:51:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re not torturing the terrorists for “no reason”. You’re torturing them to stop the plans they’ve been involved in planning from coming to fruition, or the terror groups they’ve been involved in building from continuing to function.From a purely moral standpoint, yes. From a practical standpoint, no. I’d like you to explain how torturing someone stops plans that OTHER PEOPLE are carrying out. Especially when, as has been stated numerous times by people more knowledgeable than me, any information garnered through torture is highly suspect, and probably worthless. also, if your scenario had started with the point of killing the terrorists, it might have made a better discussion point. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/199 "2014-12-10T16:52:36Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Well, you \*think \*you’ve got the kidnapper, anyway. At least, that’s what the criminal the cops arrested months ago told you in exchange for a lighter sentence. He might actually be an innocent bystander or someone your informant doesn’t like, but hey, what’s a few innocent lives when your daughter’s only got minutes of air? > > Luckily you’ve got a basement full of potential kidnappers- eventually you’ll find the one who knows where your daughter is, right? Meh. A scenario where you’re overwhelmingly sure it’s the kidnapper is plausible. And for myself, cowardly or not, I’m gonna do what it takes to get my daughter back. At which point I’ll turn myself over for prosecution. There’s a reason why we don’t set up laws such that parents of rape victim may legally murder the rapists. Our justice system is supposed to be impartial, and parents aren’t that. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/200 "2014-12-10T16:53:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not exactly a point in the favor of these torture methods. Question: is every method that “breaks people” torture by definition? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=11)