# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/201 "2014-12-10T16:54:52Z")
This thread took on a major hijack! What about the report itself, should it have been published? Is it unneccesssarily inflamatory? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/202 "2014-12-10T16:55:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Question: is every method that “breaks people” torture by definition? I don’t know. The definition of torture doesn’t include any requirement to “break people”, but I’m not sure if there are any ways to “break” someone (in the context of interrogation) that is not torture. Can you think of any? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/203 "2014-12-10T16:55:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > There’s no “gotcha” here. I know that I am a weak, emotionally-driven, and deeply flawed human being. I know that I would compromise my ethics and my morality in some situations. But I strive to be better than that, and I want my fellow citizens and the government we have established to be better than that as well. Well said. What a strange thing to try to argue that killing people outright in a war is morally equivalent to torture. Both actions are reprehensible and terrible. But one is arguably necessary (if regrettable), the other is fairly clearly not necessary and in fact is ultimately destructive of the ideals and morals of any nation that practices it. ETA: As for the question posed by the OP, I for one am glad for the report, and to see some light shed on this despicable practice. Even the CIA should ultimately be answerable to the people, and held to our highest ideals. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/204 "2014-12-10T16:55:49Z")
eh? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/205 "2014-12-10T16:56:14Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > This thread took on a major hijack! What about the report itself, should it have been published? Is it unneccesssarily inflamatory? Yes, and no, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/206 "2014-12-10T16:56:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Reread it. He just told you she was 5 minutes away. He’s the kidnapper. That’s a very convenient pre-torture qualification. It’s odd that the hypothetical kidnapper would tell you that for free. What if he hadn’t told you that? Or if you misheard him, or if he heard that bit of information from someone else? Is Jack Bauer going to come in and save the day? Maybe John McClane? Is this a Michael Bay style hypothetical, with lots of explosions, or maybe more of a \*Taken \*homage? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/207 "2014-12-10T16:57:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Speaking solely for myself, I would torture, murder, and otherwise destroy someone to protect my child in that hypothetical. > > I would nonetheless _still_ consider my actions to be repugnant, cowardly, and morally indefensible. > > Thank Kdapt that situation will never arise. > > There’s no “gotcha” here. I know that I am a weak, emotionally-driven, and deeply flawed human being. I know that I would compromise my ethics and my morality in some situations. But I strive to be better than that, and I want my fellow citizens and the government we have established to be better than that as well. Great answer, by the way. Who the hell is “Kdapt”, though? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/208 "2014-12-10T16:57:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Speaking solely for myself, I would torture, murder, and otherwise destroy someone to protect my child in that hypothetical. > > I would nonetheless _still_ consider my actions to be repugnant, cowardly, and morally indefensible. > > … I totally agree with you, except, I’d find the actions morally justified and necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/209 "2014-12-10T16:59:01Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Well said. > > What a strange thing to try to argue that killing people outright in a war is morally equivalent to torture. Both actions are reprehensible and terrible. But one is arguably necessary (if regrettable), the other is fairly clearly not necessary and in fact is ultimately destructive of the ideals and morals of any nation that practices it. You were just presented, above, a scenario where it is fairly clearly necessary (if regrettable). Does that make it justifiable? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/210 "2014-12-10T16:59:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Great answer, by the way. > > Who the hell is “Kdapt”, though? [It’s a reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kdaptist) to Larry Niven’s “Known Space” universe (in novels and short stories.) In short, the prophet of a fictional alien religious order. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/211 "2014-12-10T17:01:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’d like you to explain how torturing someone stops plans that OTHER PEOPLE are carrying out. It gives you information about those other people, how they’re organized, where their resources are, what their plans are etc. I’m sorry to say this but it sounds like you’re completely unfamiliar with the torture program that was being run, and I would suggest reading up on it a bit if you’re going to comment on it. > [@](#): > > Especially when, as has been stated numerous times by people more knowledgeable than me, any information garnered through torture is highly suspect, and probably worthless. That’s a respectable opinion and quite possibly correct, but there are also other opinions which differ strongly, and they might be correct too. But either way. that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, which is about a hypothetical case in which you can get valuable information. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/212 "2014-12-10T17:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Question: is every method that “breaks people” torture by definition? What a fascinating exercise in precise semantic distinction! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/213 "2014-12-10T17:02:57Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > [It’s a reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kdaptist) to Larry Niven’s “Known Space” universe (in novels and short stories.) In short, the prophet of a fictional alien religious order. Oddly enough, I just finished reading “Fleet of Worlds”, and I’d read the first Ringworld years ago. But I never read any of the Man-Kzin war books. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/214 "2014-12-10T17:05:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s a respectable opinion and quite possibly correct, but there are also other opinions which differ strongly, and they might be correct too. It is interesting that some people keep hanging their opposition on the “fact” that torture didn’t produce results. That’s conditional morality. So - if it was proven that torture did produce results in some cases, would they support it? I don’t think they would. So the “it doesn’t produce results” reasoning is quite disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/215 "2014-12-10T17:05:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You were just presented, above, a scenario where it is fairly clearly necessary (if regrettable). Does that make it justifiable? I find your efforts to weasel out a logical, moral justification for torture disappointing, and I reject the premise posed by your scenario. There’s always a better way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/216 "2014-12-10T17:06:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is interesting that some people keep hanging their opposition on the “fact” that torture didn’t produce results. That’s conditional morality. So - if it was proven that torture did produce results in some cases, would they support it? I don’t think they would. So the “it doesn’t produce results” reasoning is quite disingenuous. One can oppose torture (or anything) for more than one reason. “It doesn’t work” is a valid criticism, as is “it’s morally wrong”. It’s possible to believe both things are true. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/217 "2014-12-10T17:07:22Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I find your efforts to weasel out a logical, moral justification for torture disappointing, and I reject the premise posed by your scenario. There’s always a better way. Wasn’t my scenario. Sure there is. I heard that humming very loudly works. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/218 "2014-12-10T17:08:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Correct. I thought we were discussing morality here. So I’ll include the finish of my post which you clipped… once more with feeling and emphasis added. “Attacking the basis of all those agreements by not being a trustworthy actor with respect to them tends to negate their effectiveness in reducing the inhumanity of war (note - reduction not complete elimination.) \*\*Being an untrustworthy actor within those systems, and risking escalation of inhumane/immoral methods those systems tried to constrain is a moral issue IMO. \*\*” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/219 "2014-12-10T17:10:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is interesting that some people keep hanging their opposition on the “fact” that torture didn’t produce results. That’s conditional morality. So - if it was proven that torture did produce results in some cases, would they support it? I don’t think they would. So the “it doesn’t produce results” reasoning is quite disingenuous. Not at all. Look: if torture produced results, if gay marriage actually harmed straight marriage, if there really were WMDs in Iraq, then supporting torture/opposing gay marriage/invading Iraq would be interesting questions. I’d still oppose them but I could much better understand those who held those positions. We’d be arguing over values, not facts. But torture doesn’t produce results, just like gay marriage doesn’t harm straight marriages and there weren’t WMDs in Iraq. Supporting torture, just like holding those other positions, is plain ignorant. We don’t even need to get to the debate about values. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/220 "2014-12-10T17:11:13Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > So I’ll include the finish of my post which you clipped… once more with feeling and emphasis added. > “Attacking the basis of all those agreements by not being a trustworthy actor with respect to them tends to negate their effectiveness in reducing the inhumanity of war (note - reduction not complete elimination.) \*\*Being an untrustworthy actor within those systems, and risking escalation of inhumane/immoral methods those systems tried to constrain is a moral issue IMO. \*\*” In this case, we’re dealing with people that don’t have the concept of “escalation”. They do their utmost to damage us, with no constraints. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=12)