# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/221 "2014-12-10T17:13:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But torture doesn’t produce results The report says it doesn’t. [Six former CIA chiefs](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-directors-interrogation-program-saved-thousands-lives/story?id=27470215) that published an article today about it say it does. I think they have some expertise to render that opinion, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/222 "2014-12-10T17:16:15Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > This thread took on a major hijack! What about the report itself, should it have been published? Is it unneccesssarily inflamatory? Absolutely not. And absolutely yes. I feel sorry for Feinstein, who I viewed as one of the saner CA Dems. But if there is blowback from this visited upon Americans are people who have helped us, that is on her conscience. Hope she’s not too fond of sleeping, because deep down under whatever fucked up rationale or excuse she used to tell herself this its the right thing to do, is a conscience. The though of a U.S. Senator actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans is seriously fucked up. Someone must have pictures of her with a mastiff or something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/223 "2014-12-10T17:21:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Absolutely not. And absolutely yes. > > I feel sorry for Feinstein, who I viewed as one of the saner CA Dems. But if there is blowback from this visited upon Americans are people who have helped us, that is on her conscience. Hope she’s not too fond of sleeping, because deep down under whatever fucked up rationale or excuse she used to tell herself this its the right thing to do, is a conscience. > > The though of a U.S. Senator actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans is seriously fucked up. Someone must have pictures of her with a mastiff or something. “Actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans…” this is opinion, not fact. I disagree – I think this helps the US, and the longer it was swept under the rug, the more danger there would be for Americans, in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/224 "2014-12-10T17:21:59Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > [It’s a reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kdaptist) to Larry Niven’s “Known Space” universe (in novels and short stories.) In short, the prophet of a fictional alien religious order. A fictional alien religious order which holds that god exists and made \*humanity \*in his image, not the aliens, which is possibly the most clever socioreligious idea Niven ever had. But in my case, I use Kdapt as one of my placeholders for the various creator deities (even though Kdapt was a prophet, not a god; I’m nothing if not inconsistent). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/225 "2014-12-10T17:24:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The report says it doesn’t. [Six former CIA chiefs](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cia-directors-interrogation-program-saved-thousands-lives/story?id=27470215) that published an article today about it say it does. I think they have some expertise to render that opinion, wouldn’t you say? And we already have substantial evidence that the CIA has a history of deliberately withholding and misrepresenting information about its activities. Makes it harder to take those former chiefs at face value, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/226 "2014-12-10T17:24:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know. The definition of torture doesn’t include any requirement to “break people”, but I’m not sure if there are any ways to “break” someone (in the context of interrogation) that is not torture. Can you think of any? The [Reid Technique](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique) of questioning. It has gotten confessions to crimes even in cases where the suspect was later exonerated by DNA evidence. Getting even a genuine perpetrator to suddenly produce a confession seems like psychologically breaking them. It’s not generally considered to be torture. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/227 "2014-12-10T17:25:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It gives you information about those other people, how they’re organized, where their resources are, what their plans are etc. > > I’m sorry to say this but it sounds like you’re completely unfamiliar with the torture program that was being run, and I would suggest reading up on it a bit if you’re going to comment on it. > > That’s a respectable opinion and quite possibly correct, but there are also other opinions which differ strongly, and they might be correct too. > > But either way. that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, which is about a hypothetical case in which you can get valuable information. My sentences sort of go together, so need to be read together to get the full meaning. Also, I’m sure I can hold my own with knowledge about the torture program, however, you stated (paraphrasing) “torture a guy to stop other terrorists from terrorizing” you DIDN"T say “torture a guy in order to obtain information that may or may not be correct, true, and/or accurate, and then act upon THAT information in a way that may or may not be morally ambiguous” If the latter is what you meant, I suggest writing what you mean next time, to project a clearer picture. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/228 "2014-12-10T17:26:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans…” this is opinion, not fact. I disagree – I think this helps the US, and the longer it was swept under the rug, the more danger there would be for Americans, in the long run. We’ll see, won’t we? And if I am right you and that dumb cunt can reprocess your thinking. In the meantime, the both of you can enjoy your nice comfortable existence and pray for those who _may_ be affected by this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/229 "2014-12-10T17:27:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Absolutely not. And absolutely yes. > > I feel sorry for Feinstein, who I viewed as one of the saner CA Dems. But if there is blowback from this visited upon Americans are people who have helped us, that is on her conscience. Hope she’s not too fond of sleeping, because deep down under whatever fucked up rationale or excuse she used to tell herself this its the right thing to do, is a conscience. > > The though of a U.S. Senator actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans is seriously fucked up. Someone must have pictures of her with a mastiff or something. Oh, for Christ sakes. If anyone has endangered Americans, it’s the **torturers**. Do you think there aren’t already stories about the US torturing people going around the Middle East? Do you think nobody knew about this stuff until this report came out? Imagine an aggro Saudi teenager spoiling for a fight. Which of these things is going to make him hate the US more: -Stories about secret CIA prisons where guys like him get tortured, and the US is covering it up; or -An official report by the US Senate about torture, blasting torturers and demanding better? If you think it’s the latter, well, that’s pretty special. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/230 "2014-12-10T17:27:09Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > The [Reid Technique](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique) of questioning. It has gotten confessions to crimes even in cases where the suspect was later exonerated by DNA evidence. Getting even a genuine perpetrator to suddenly produce a confession seems like psychologically breaking them. > > It’s not generally considered to be torture. That doesn’t sound like “breaking them”, it sounds like “tricking them”, at least in the cases in which the confession was false. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/231 "2014-12-10T17:27:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Absolutely not. And absolutely yes. > > I feel sorry for Feinstein, who I viewed as one of the saner CA Dems. But if there is blowback from this visited upon Americans are people who have helped us, that is on her conscience. Hope she’s not too fond of sleeping, because deep down under whatever fucked up rationale or excuse she used to tell herself this its the right thing to do, is a conscience. > > The though of a U.S. Senator actively hurting the U.S. and causing danger for Americans is seriously fucked up. Someone must have pictures of her with a mastiff or something. Wrong on both points. It’s the people who practice and condone torture that put us in danger. Knowing that the US tortures has been a recruiting bonanza for terrorist organizations. You can’t argue that it works because it doesn’t. You can’t argue that it’s legal because it isn’t. You can’t argue that it isn’t torture because it is. Only by coming clean and exposing how horrific we were can we hope to ever again claim the moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/232 "2014-12-10T17:28:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is interesting that some people keep hanging their opposition on the “fact” that torture didn’t produce results. That’s conditional morality. So - if it was proven that torture did produce results in some cases, would they support it? I don’t think they would. So the “it doesn’t produce results” reasoning is quite disingenuous. I don’t hang my opposition on the “fact” that torture doesn’t produce results. I am against it on moral principles in all cases. I simply point out that other people are FOR torture in some cases because “it might work.” based on nothing more than Jack Bauer reruns and what they read in a magazine one time. I am not one of those people. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/233 "2014-12-10T17:28:36Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And we already have substantial evidence that the CIA has a history of deliberately withholding and misrepresenting information about its activities. Makes it harder to take those former chiefs at face value, wouldn’t you say? Six of them?! Serving under both Dem and Rep presidents? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/234 "2014-12-10T17:28:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In this case, we’re dealing with people that don’t have the concept of “escalation”. They do their utmost to damage us, with no constraints. But we also show a willingness to ignore out commitment to the other nation-states that are signatories to the relevant accords in this matter and others. It’s not just an action relative to the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/235 "2014-12-10T17:32:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We’ll see, won’t we? And if I am right you and that dumb cunt can reprocess your thinking. Everyone already knew we tortured. We’ve known for many years. And then the President said we did. Now the Senate committee has, with some more details. It’s laughable that this would “cause” any attacks. If anything “causes” attacks related to this, it would be the fact that we tortured people, not documenting and discussing it years after it was revealed. > [@](#): > > In the meantime, the both of you can enjoy your nice comfortable existence and pray for those who _may_ be affected by this. What on earth is this supposed to mean? It could be just as easily turned around to those who support torture, and/or those who want it swept under the rug. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/236 "2014-12-10T17:34:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Six of them?! Serving under both Dem and Rep presidents? :rolleyes: Oh, well. There’s _six_ of them. Gosh, I guess they couldn’t _all_ have been part of the CIA’s long-standing and well-documented history of withholding information that dates back to its inception and before. :rolleyes: right back atcha. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/237 "2014-12-10T17:35:24Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And we already have substantial evidence that the CIA has a history of deliberately withholding and misrepresenting information about its activities. Makes it harder to take those former chiefs at face value, wouldn’t you say? And Congress committee reports are always straightforward and truthful, and never withhold or misrepresent information, of course. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/238 "2014-12-10T17:35:55Z")
CIA people? Not being honest? Knock me over with a feather! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/239 "2014-12-10T17:36:21Z")
While the torture aspect is near unforgivable, the fact that the CIA continually lied to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence should put the fear of god into liberals and conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/240 "2014-12-10T17:36:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Wrong on both points. It’s the people who practice and condone torture that put us in danger. Knowing that the US tortures has been a recruiting bonanza for terrorist organizations. You can’t argue that it works because it doesn’t. You can’t argue that it’s legal because it isn’t. You can’t argue that it isn’t torture because it is. Only by coming clean and exposing how horrific we were can we hope to ever again claim the moral high ground. Bullshit. This is not about whether torture works or not. It is not about whether we should do it or not. t is not even about what constitutes torture or not. It has already been established that the practices at issue have been stopped. Period. This is simply a bitch angry at the CIA grandstanding. At the very least, this fans the flames of a a fire we already put out. But hey, let’s keep reminding our enemies who want to kill us of all the bad things we’ve done and mistakes we’ve made. Here’s an idea for people like you and her: why not propose a National Holiday: Abu Graib Day, where every year a butch of deluded nitwits can march through the streets holding up pictures from Abu Graib? Whataya say? You can draft a letter to your congressman with the idea and post it here so others of your ilk can policy it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=13)