# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/21 "2014-12-09T18:09:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m kind of ambivalent about this as a practical matter, but I disagree with making a broad principle of it. > > In theory, suppose the two scenarios were available were 1) terrorists torture and kill everyone in the world (including me :eek:), or 2) the terrorists get tortured, I am absolutely in favor of Option 2. (I’m curious as to whether anyone would disagree with this.) > > So I’m not in principle against torture in any circumstance. Now the devil is in the details. How serious is the terrorist threat, and what amount of advantage (if any) do various levels of torture offer over other options? I don’t know, hence my ambivalence. This is the logic of a sociopath. Whether the terrorists are in fact a serious threat, and whether torture is effective at all, are central, not ancillary concerns or mere details. And you nowhere account for the concern of the rights of the people we torture, including those innocent people inevitably caught up in such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/22 "2014-12-09T18:09:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you trust that the government has the ability to mostly eliminate any uncertainty about whether a specific detainee is actually a terrorist? What level of uncertainty is acceptable to you as to whether someone should be “allowed” to be tortured? I don’t know the answer to either of these questions. (If you left the “mostly” out of your first sentence I would say “no” - I’m not sure what you meant by saying “mostly eliminate any …”) > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is the logic of a sociopath. Whether the terrorists are in fact a serious threat, and whether torture is effective at all, are central, not ancillary concerns or mere details. And you nowhere account for the concern of the rights of the people we torture, including those innocent people inevitably caught up in such a situation. This is the “logic” of a person who can’t reason at all. Neither of these points have a logical bearing on what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/23 "2014-12-09T18:13:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is the “logic” of a person who can’t reason at all. Neither of these points have a logical bearing on what I wrote. I’m sure you think that. Really, I am. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/24 "2014-12-09T18:17:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know the answer to either of these questions. (If you left the “mostly” out of your first sentence I would say “no” - I’m not sure what you meant by saying “mostly eliminate any …”) I wasn’t asking what you “know”, but your opinion. The second part assumes that you would accept some non-zero uncertainty if you’re constitutionally okay with torture – but if not, then it sounds like you wouldn’t be okay with torture in any situation because there would be some non-zero chance that the wrong person would be tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/25 "2014-12-09T18:19:43Z")
I would take some “non-zero” level of uncertainty if the stakes were high enough. But I don’t know where the line is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/26 "2014-12-09T18:26:18Z")
Okay. For me, the line is that torture is always unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/27 "2014-12-09T18:29:22Z")
Due to non-zero uncertainty, or even at 100% certainty? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/28 "2014-12-09T18:30:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Due to non-zero uncertainty, or even at 100% certainty? Both. I’ll note that 100% certainty is not achievable by humans in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/29 "2014-12-09T18:32:03Z")
From a [victim of torture](https://twitter.com/BahmanKalbasi/status/542366683349151744) in Iran: “The similarity of what my interrogator in Iran used to say and this CIA agent is beyond disturbing.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/30 "2014-12-09T18:33:27Z")
The [Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11282617/CIA-torture-report-released-live.html) has noted: > [@](#): > > Some of the most important CIA-led interrogations were carried out by people with no specialist training or expertise, some of whom had histories of violence: > > • CIA employed people who had “personal and professional problems of a serious nature” – including histories of violence and abusive treatment of others. The report found that that should have called into question their employment, let alone their suitability to participate in the sensitive CIA program. > > • Two psychologists were employed as outside contractors – neither of them had any experience as an interrogator, nor did either have specialised knowledge of al-Qaeda, a background in counterterrorism, or any relevant cultural or linguistic expertise. They personally conducted some of the most important interrogations. In 2005, they formed a company to expand their work with the CIA. Shortly thereafter, the CIA outsourced virtually all aspects of the program. The CIA paid the company more than $80 million. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/31 "2014-12-09T18:34:22Z")
Senate Democrats release this report on the same day Jonathan Gruber testifies before Congress. What are the coincidences? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/32 "2014-12-09T18:36:13Z")
Abu Zubaydah was subjected to more than a month of “enhanced interrogation” (including loud, constant music, terrible food, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation), at the end of which he was described by CIA interrogators as “clearly a broken man” and “on the verge of a complete breakdown”. That sounds like something only dictators and warlords do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/33 "2014-12-09T18:40:10Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Senate Democrats release this report on the same day Jonathan Gruber testifies before Congress. What are the coincidences? Congress calls Gruber to testify on the same day that Senate Democrats plan to release this report. What are the chances? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/34 "2014-12-09T18:49:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Congress calls Gruber to testify on the same day that Senate Democrats plan to release this report. What are the chances? Except it would be wrong to argue that. Very wrong. It was announced on Nov. 25th that Gruber would testify before Congress on Dec. 9th. The CIA report was announced to be released “soon” on the 5th of Dec. [http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/jonathan-gruber-testify-obamacare-congress-113163.html](http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/jonathan-gruber-testify-obamacare-congress-113163.html) [https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/05/signs-obama-gets-cold-feet-exposing-cias-torture-secrets/](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/05/signs-obama-gets-cold-feet-exposing-cias-torture-secrets/) A bunch of shyster politicians behaving like shyster politicians. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/35 "2014-12-09T18:51:28Z")
I love how conservatives like to argue that there is some tiny chance torture would be helpful in some ridiculous hypothetical and therefore it should remain legal (sorta), and the people who performed it allowed to go free and not jailed, instead of fearing the slippery slope that it may be used badly, as we have proof of, and ban it (like it technically is already). Yet when it comes to something like guns, if one store in one state starts selling a type of gun that can only be fired by its owner, then the next day, nay, the next _hour_, you’ll have stormtroopers breaking down your door for your guns. Actually I take that back, I don’t love that at all. Its sick and disgusting. A torture anecdote: When the show 24 was popular, and Jack Bauer got half his info from torture, I remember reading articles online of conservatives saying that even a hero like Jack tortures and liberals like him, and the show’s popularity among a cross section of demographics means that Americans are ok with torture, and that we should all be like Jack, and that torture is (erroneously portrayed in the show) as effective for those “ticking time bomb” scenarios. But then someone pointed out something that was missed. Jack did what he did, but from the midpoint of that show, somewhere around season 4, Jack had a slight change of heart. He still tortured and did things his way, but he was willing, unlike real life conservatives, to face the consequences. Jack said to, I think, a Senate panel discussing his actions, that he was willing to stand up for what he believed in and stand trial for what he had done. After the events of one of his Very Bad Days are over, he was willing to turn himself in and face the consequences. That’s what I never see from real life conservatives. Consequences. Ironic, since they are all about telling the poor and the weak and minorities to face the consequences of their actions. Everybody who tortured in the CIA under some White House mandate should turn themselves in and stand trial. Everyone who ordered it, or looked the opposite way when it happened under their watch (Bush, Cheney), should turn themselves in. If they believed in torture so much, let them believe the American justice system will get them off. Or let them fall on their sword and go to jail for torture with the satisfaction of knowing (believing) they helped prevent American casualties. But all I see are cowards hiding behind memos and lies, and fomenting partisan attacks to prevent a full accounting of justice. Nobody who tortured someone in our custody deserves to go free ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/36 "2014-12-09T18:54:13Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Except it would be wrong to argue that. Very wrong. > > It was announced on Nov. 25th that Gruber would testify before Congress on Dec. 9th. The CIA report was announced to be released “soon” on the 5th of Dec. > > [http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/jonathan-gruber-testify-obamacare-congress-113163.html](http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/jonathan-gruber-testify-obamacare-congress-113163.html) > > [https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/05/signs-obama-gets-cold-feet-exposing-cias-torture-secrets/](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/05/signs-obama-gets-cold-feet-exposing-cias-torture-secrets/) > > A bunch of shyster politicians behaving like shyster politicians. Sounds like just what they want you to believe. But feel free to ignore the torture report if you’re not interested. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/37 "2014-12-09T18:54:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > From a [victim of torture](https://twitter.com/BahmanKalbasi/status/542366683349151744) in Iran: > > “The similarity of what my interrogator in Iran used to say and this CIA agent is beyond disturbing.” Torture is what the Nazis did. It’s what the KGB did. It’s what the dreaded Saddam Hussein did. We’re supposed to be better than that. > [@](#): > > FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation, the United States Army field manual, explains that torture “is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.”[4] Not only is torture ineffective at gathering reliable information, but it also increases the difficulty of gathering information from a source in the future. > [@](#): > > [We’re not seeing too many “professionals” argue the case for torture–instead we see those who believe fighting terrorists is about some kind of contest of will between Islam and the West romanticizing criminal behavior as “necessary” because, for some reason, they think protecting American society requires that take our cues from those we’re fighting.](http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/an_fbi_interrogator_on_the_effectiveness_of_torture/) Using torture as interrogation means we have become the very thing we claim to have been fighting against. We’ve surrendered the moral high ground. Torture is evil. And it’s stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/38 "2014-12-09T19:00:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll note that 100% certainty is not achievable by humans in the real world. Agreed, WRT this or any other issue. How do you distinguish (if you do) between torture on the one hand, and bombings or other military and police actions on the other? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/39 "2014-12-09T19:01:44Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > . > _SNIP_ If they believed in torture so much, let them believe the American justice system will get them off. Or let them fall on their sword and go to jail for torture with the satisfaction of knowing (believing) they helped prevent American casualties. True. As we heard so very often back in the Bush years: if they haven’t done anything wrong then they don’t have anything to fear, right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/40 "2014-12-09T19:04:21Z")
How alert is a torture subject to his tormentor? What clues might a “motivated” subject pick up that might tell him to what his tormentor wanted to hear? If you were a truly evil and cynical monster, wouldn’t you use a dupe? Wouldn’t you pick some low-value _shmuck_, let him think that he has vital information, that he is “in” with the heavy honchos, and let him get caught, after you fill his head with nonsense? Send your enemies off on a hundred wild goose chases, glean information on their habits and practices, as well as sowing confusion. I’m a fairly decent person. If this could occur to me, then it has occurred to others. It isn’t all that clever, only the possession of scruples would prevent it. Was Khalid Sheik Mohammed really the “mastermind”? Why, because he “confessed”? Was his confession corroborated by others, eager to please their interrogators? Remember back when GeeDub claimed that 75% of AlQ’s leadership had been eliminated? Is this where we got our “facts”? I don’t recall who, but the story is of a general on Napolean’s staff who disagreed with a decision because it was immoral, and worse, it was stupid. Somebody has to be the Americans. I still hope that someday, it will be us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=3)