# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/381 "2014-12-11T01:05:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite? I saw sleep deprivation, loud music, and standing in uncomfortable positions described as “torture”. I’ve endured such “horrendous acts” in basic training. In 2007, Scylla was brave enough(and reckless enough) to [waterboard himself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717&highlight=waterboard)to determine if it was truly torture. it’s foolish to declare something as not horrendous when you haven’t truly experienced it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/382 "2014-12-11T01:16:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He wasn’t asked to criticize. He was asked if he would have done the same. And he refused to answer, while making an excuse for the action. That’s what tacit endorsement is, almost by definition. And, of course, had he given a clear answer, no one would have seen that as criticism. Sorry. You are simply playing partisan politics. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/383 "2014-12-11T01:20:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Evade and dodge. So let’s get some things out of the way. Is sleep deprivation a “horrendous act”? Loud music? etc. etc. I don’t think so but maybe you do. You know, just so that I know what you’re referring to when speaking of “horrendous acts”? Here’s what one victim of sleep deprivation said after being subjected to it by Soviet secret police: > [@Menachem Begin](#): > > In the head of the interrogated prisoner, a haze begins to form. His spirit is wearied to death, his legs are unsteady, and he has one sole desire: to sleep… Anyone who has experienced this desire knows that not even hunger and thirst are comparable with it Is that what you experienced? If it’s not, it’s possible that you didn’t actually experience a severe version of sleep deprivation. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/384 "2014-12-11T01:21:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite? I saw sleep deprivation, loud music, and standing in uncomfortable positions described as “torture”. I’ve endured such “horrendous acts” in basic training. No. You did not. You experienced rather brief periods of standing at attention or holding filled buckets. You were “deprived” of a few hours of sleep for a couple of nights. Your claim is akin to someone playing football comparing a hit to being struck by a car. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/385 "2014-12-11T01:25:09Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > This is disingenuous. You were not exposed to any of those things _remotely_ to the degree the victims tortured by the CIA were. So, if I really, really hate the color purple, and you place me a=ion a purple room for a month or so, that’s torture, huh? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/386 "2014-12-11T01:26:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It depends on how long. Sleep deprivation for a week? That’s horrendous. Loud music non-stop for a week? That’s probably horrendous. For a day or two? No, probably not horrendous. So where do these things move from unpleasant to really unpleasant to horrendous to torture? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/387 "2014-12-11T01:28:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Evade and dodge. So let’s get some things out of the way. Is sleep deprivation a “horrendous act”? Loud music? etc. etc. I don’t think so but maybe you do. You know, just so that I know what you’re referring to when speaking of “horrendous acts”? Military service, especially for basic training, is designed so that most people fit enough for military service can pass it. Your argument is, again, nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/388 "2014-12-11T01:29:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Some folks understand that justice has to be for everyone or it isn’t justice. Some folks also understand that we have to be better than the worst for us to take any pride at all in who we are - and this release is a step in that direction. If it’s one’s goal to damage America’s reputation and enflame those who like to kill us , fly planes into buildings and cut our heads off, you’re right. Otherwise, you couldn’t be more wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/389 "2014-12-11T01:30:19Z")
The definition, from a[little something we ratified](http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/39/a39r046.htm) and which is therefore our law: > [@](#): > > For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any > act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is > intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or > a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a > third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or > intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on > discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at > the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or > other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or > suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. If you recall anything of our contemporaneous discussions on the issue, this should not be a question for you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/390 "2014-12-11T01:30:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if I really, really hate the color purple, and you place me a=ion a purple room for a month or so, that’s torture, huh? It depends is that room so small you can’t sit down? Is there a tube up your ass? You’re defending torture for partisan reasons. Think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/391 "2014-12-11T01:30:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if I really, really hate the color purple, and you place me a=ion a purple room for a month or so, that’s torture, huh? Just to be clear, do you think this is a good analogy? I mean, don’t respond right away; really stop and reflect on it. If you conclude, “actually, no, I can see some giant fucking differences between dealing with a color I don’t like and being deprived of a basic animal necessity, sorry to waste everyone’s time with a terrible analogy, I retract it,” nobody will think worse of you; quite the contrary. Reflect, and let us know what you decide. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/392 "2014-12-11T01:31:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it’s one’s goal to damage America’s reputation and enflame those who like to kill us , fly planes into buildings and cut our heads off, you’re right. Otherwise, you couldn’t be more wrong. How about a bit of elaboration, then. If we torture, then we’re no better than the other torturers, are we? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/393 "2014-12-11T01:31:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Military service, especially for basic training, is designed so that most people fit enough for military service can pass it. Your argument is, again, nonsense. Basic training is designed so they “break you” and put you together again. Kinda like “breaking” someone in interrogation. ---
**Author:** ![EndlessEntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f9ae1b/32.png) [@EndlessEntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EndlessEntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/394 "2014-12-11T01:32:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The Bush administration made the US do a vile thing. And the GOP Base, the folk that elect people like Bush, would start CW II if a Republican president were hauled off in chains. > > Obama, the adult who has to deal with the tantrum throwers on the right, has decided that clapping Cheney in irons isn’t worth the societal damage it would cause. Just like Ford decided that clapping Nixon in irons wasn’t worth the societal damage it would cause. So we would be at war with some old white males, big deal. And the collective heads at Fox News would explode with outrage if Bush administration officials were prosecuted, which many sane people would enjoy seeing. You’re delusional if you think something on the magnitude of a civil war would occur, the divide is nothing like slavery was. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/395 "2014-12-11T01:33:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You did not. You experienced rather brief periods of standing at attention or holding filled buckets. You were “deprived” of a few hours of sleep for a couple of nights. Ah, the old Kreskin school of debate. Interesting that you know more about what he experienced than he did. If you doubt his recollection, why don’t you ASK him for clarification. Easier your way, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/396 "2014-12-11T01:33:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it’s one’s goal to damage America’s reputation and enflame those who like to kill us , fly planes into buildings and cut our heads off, you’re right. Otherwise, you couldn’t be more wrong. Accounting for the evil GOP voters put in power did, isn’t trivial. It’s necessary so that we don’t have more evil done in our names. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/397 "2014-12-11T01:36:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If it’s one’s goal to damage America’s reputation and enflame those who like to kill us , fly planes into buildings and cut our heads off, you’re right. Otherwise, you couldn’t be more wrong. Piffle. Our enemies (and most of our friends) already knew that we have been betraying our ideals in this area. This simply makes us look better to the rest of the world than Turkey denying the Armenian genocide or Japan pretending that WWII was a minor imposition on its neighbors and that “comfort women” and the Rape of Nanking never happened. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/398 "2014-12-11T01:37:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It depends is that room so small you can’t sit down? > > Is there a tube up your ass? > > You’re defending torture for partisan reasons. Think about that. I assure you, I’m not the one with something up his ass. And where is it written that there needs to be a multiple things happening for it to constitute torture? And no, I’m not defending torture. And that brings to light part of the problem—what is torture? That’s really fodder for a separate discussion, but you’re attempting to use the ambiguity to help your argument. It does not, it simply derails the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/399 "2014-12-11T01:38:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Basic training is designed so they “break you” and put you together again. Kinda like “breaking” someone in interrogation. Bullshit. It’s your assertion that that torture done by the CIA is no worse than the basic training you did? Get a lot of tubes up your ass in basic? Get waterboarded a hundred and some odd times? Aside, even if the acts were the same (and they weren’t) doing them while captive and while in a voluntary service is not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/400 "2014-12-11T01:38:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Piffle. Our enemies (and most of our friends) already knew that we have been betraying our ideals in this area. This simply makes us look better to the rest of the world than Turkey denying the Armenian genocide or Japan pretending that WWII was a minor imposition on its neighbors and that “comfort women” and the Rape of Nanking never happened. Our enemies, and most of our friends with militaries that have ever participated in any significant engagement, do the same or way worse in the torture department to extract information from enemies at war time. Of course, unlike us, they don’t air their laundry out for the world to see and point to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=21)