# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/441 "2014-12-11T03:54:35Z")
If this was all about re-hydration, what’s all that stuff about foodstuffs being stuffed? How does that help in hydration? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/442 "2014-12-11T03:54:55Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Loath as I am to agree with **Terr** , the truth is a bit more nuanced. The goal of a war is…the war’s goals. Replace the dictator, reclaim the land, seize the land, free the hostages, “teach those bastards a lesson,” prop up the domestic economy with war spending, whatever. > > The strategic goal is usually to deprive the enemy of the ability to resist. Incapacitating the enemy is one way to do that. But simply knocking out their communications and supplies is another. Bypassing them entirely and cutting them off leaves them as fully-functional as before…and unable to operate effectively. Knocking out communications and supplies is incapacitating them. Cutting them off is incapacitating them. Being unable to operate is being incapacitated. > [@DinoR](#): > > Not exactly. You incapacitate (wound, capture, kill, turn into a fine red mist, etc) the enemy in order to meet the goals of the operation or inhibit the enemy from being able to meet their goals. Violence is the tool not the end in and of itself. It can be a fine line since there’s considerable overlap in meeting the goal and killing the enemy to reduce their capability or willingness to resist you achieving that goal. Inhibiting the enemy from being able to meet their goals is incapacitating them. I made no mention of violence. It’s certainly not a requirement for incapacitation. Reducing their capability or willingness to resist you is incapacitating them. [ > [@](#): > > 1. to deprive of ability, qualification, or strength; make incapable or unfit; disable. > 2. Law. to deprive of the legal power to act in a specified way or ways. ]([INCAPACITATE Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incapacitate)) The goal war is to incapacitate the enemy, to render them unable to function as they wish. A particular war may have other goals, but the aim of _war_ is to incapacitate your enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/443 "2014-12-11T03:55:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Fantasies. As you quoted yourself, it was more effective. Also: I could be wrong, but would you mind pointing me to the medical journal or expert who recommends [pureeing hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts, and raisins, and forcing them into someone’s rectum](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1376764-committee-study-ofthe-centralintelligenceagmcys.html#document/p126)? Can you show me the doctor who considers this to be effective medical treatment? When a patient subject to this sort of violation later develops anal fissures and rectal prolapse, do you flutter your fingers and titter, “What a co-eenky-dink”? How sure are you that you want to tie your horse to this cart? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/444 "2014-12-11T03:56:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As compared to having your nails pulled with pliers (you know, “torture”)? Piece of cake. Watch out. If I know magellan, he’s about to hoot with laughter at your excluded middle. He’s terribly non-partisan, so brace yourself for a scolding. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/445 "2014-12-11T04:03:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Also: I could be wrong, but would you mind pointing me to the medical journal or expert who recommends [pureeing hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts, and raisins, and forcing them into someone’s rectum](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1376764-committee-study-ofthe-centralintelligenceagmcys.html#document/p126)? That is not what was being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/446 "2014-12-11T04:31:20Z")
No, what was being discussed was the forcible–and _unnecessary_–insertion of material into the rectum as a means of achieving compliance. A physical violation used as a tool of physical and psychological coercion. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/447 "2014-12-11T04:41:23Z")
It seems some persons do not lose the values of their birthplaces and time. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/448 "2014-12-11T05:58:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That is not what was being discussed. Well, that certainly settles that, then! \*\* Lefty\*\*, what’s the matter with you, bringing up stuff that wasn’t being discussed! Clearly, the subject at hand is rectal hydration, for hygenic and medical purposes! Sure, what you are talking about is on the record as having happened, but its not what was being dicussed! And **Terr** clearly called “No backsies!”. 'Fraid you don’t have a leg to stand on, here… ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/449 "2014-12-11T06:39:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Evade and dodge. So let’s get some things out of the way. Is sleep deprivation a “horrendous act”? Loud music? etc. etc. I don’t think so but maybe you do. You know, just so that I know what you’re referring to when speaking of “horrendous acts”? This is totally dodging the point as well… There’s only one thing to be said - [Is there anything wrong with offering a 5 year old a soda?](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2553449/Couple-charged-murder-five-year-old-girl-forced-drink-excessive-grape-juice-punishment.html), How many of the parents here have given there children a glass of grape soda when they came home from school? ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/450 "2014-12-11T08:55:46Z")
I hope the disbelief in this thread regarding the subject is of the ignorant type and not the willful sort. I find the comparison between the consenting act of somebody enduring military tests over a weekend with the always present option of flunking out and being forcibly made to endure water, sleep and restraint torture over weeks and months to be particularly disingenuous. This is gulag type stuff as others have mentioned and it should be plain to anybody of any side of the debate that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/451 "2014-12-11T09:31:31Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > \*Hypothetical. Take your hypothetical, write it on a Post-It, and eat it. I said what I said, I see no need to repeat it in torture-porn format for your self-gratification. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/452 "2014-12-11T10:17:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah you’re one of those people who claims that the law that required an ultrasound before abortion was “rape” as well. False equivalency. One was being told you have to have X otherwise you won’t get Y. Whether this is rape or not isn’t up for discussion, that’s a whole different thread. It is however, despite how distasteful it is to those experiencing it, something that the person has the option to decline. The other is forcing someone against their will to have water rammed up their arse under the guise of “rehydration”, despite there being better, medical methods of doing it that magically don’t involve anal penetration. As for doing it with food, are those sort of nutrients even absorbed/processed in the rectum? And let’s face it, the stuff isn’t going to stay in there for very long anyway. Let’s try another tactic. If you were held against your will and forcibly had something _anything_ forced up your arse, would you think you were anally raped? Let me guess your answer: “no because it wasn’t a penis”. Well I’m sorry, it doesn’t have to be a penis for it to be rape. [http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/recent-program-updates/new-rape-definition-frequently-asked-questions) > [@](#): > > The new Summary definition of Rape is: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or > anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without > the consent of the victim.” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/453 "2014-12-11T10:20:52Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > I hope the disbelief in this thread regarding the subject is of the ignorant type and not the willful sort. I find the comparison between the consenting act of somebody enduring military tests over a weekend with the always present option of flunking out and being forcibly made to endure water, sleep and restraint torture over weeks and months to be particularly disingenuous. This is gulag type stuff as others have mentioned and it should be plain to anybody of any side of the debate that is the case. I honestly think this is a new low for this board. I really don’t know what to make of it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/454 "2014-12-11T11:01:28Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I honestly think this is a new low for this board. I really don’t know what to make of it. No, there were plenty of attempts to excuse torture & claim that various horrible things didn’t count as torture the last time it was big in the news. > [@Terr](#): > > Right. Our enemies are massacring thousands handcuffed in ditches, executing women and children and beheading people on youtube videos. But our “potential friends” are turned away from us by us playing loud music at the captives or depriving them of sleep. Driving people into psychosis or death does make enemies, yes. The whole point of using such torture techniques is so they can be played down as “not really torture”. And it’s not like we don’t cheerfully kill people by the tens or hundreds of thousands. > [@Terr](#): > > Our enemies, and most of our friends with militaries that have ever participated in any significant engagement, do the same or way worse in the torture department to extract information from enemies at war time. As a rule no they _don’t,_ because torture is a disastrously bad method of gaining information. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/455 "2014-12-11T11:02:32Z")
> [@Onyerbike](#): > > I hope the disbelief in this thread regarding the subject is of the ignorant type and not the willful sort. I find the comparison between the consenting act of somebody enduring military tests over a weekend with the always present option of flunking out and being forcibly made to endure water, sleep and restraint torture over weeks and months to be particularly disingenuous. This is gulag type stuff as others have mentioned and it should be plain to anybody of any side of the debate that is the case. Agree 120%. If anyone makes the argument that exercises that are there to teach a recruit about conditions in the field during wartime is torture, they are completely wrong and should be laughed at. The comparison of a volunteer undergoing hardships in training = torture _when the recruit know that it’s just training the whole time_ is completely off base. -The prisoners had to endure cold cells (one died of hypothermia) “But I nearly froze sleeping in a shitty canvas tent down at the range that time!” -Prisoners were kept standing up for hours, some chained to a wall “I had to stand at attention/port arms for hours in boot camp…and currently I use a stand up desk from IKEA!” -Prisoners were waterboarded “I got water in my sinuses during swim training!” Even SERE training, which mimics actual torture, or BUDS, Ranger training, or any of the advanced schools are not torture-they suck, but they are still finite, and those who endure them know that it’s training and they will see their families again. And they not be held down and anally raped. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/456 "2014-12-11T11:32:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right. Our enemies are massacring thousands handcuffed in ditches, executing women and children and beheading people on youtube videos. But our “potential friends” are turned away from us by us playing loud music at the captives or depriving them of sleep. It does not fucking matter what anybody else does. We signed a fucking agreement not to torture anybody for any reason whatsoever, period. Nothing that terrorists do can justify it nor is 9/11 a magic amulet that grants the US special dispensation from civilized behavior. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/457 "2014-12-11T11:46:42Z")
Two things strike me from this thread, how easily some people can justify true collective depravity. Second, Osama bin Laden really did win. Just look at some of you: it’s horrifying, it’s fascist, its acceptably American. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/458 "2014-12-11T12:19:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Right. Our enemies are massacring thousands handcuffed in ditches, executing women and children and beheading people on youtube videos. But our “potential friends” are turned away from us by us playing loud music at the captives or depriving them of sleep. No the friends of the USA are affronted by the use of a torture regime (which you are trying to minimize we can see by the selective quotes to the aspects that can be made to seem innocent, it is a very bolshevik habit) that is copied from the soviets who copied themselves from the nazis. it is not an accident even the name is effectively the same as that of the gestapo program which used the same methods. > [@Terr](#): > > Our enemies, and most of our friends with militaries that have ever participated in any significant engagement, do the same or way worse in the torture department to extract information from enemies at war time. Of course, unlike us, they don’t air their laundry out for the world to see and point to. This is untrue and again resembles the bolshevik habits of propaganda. It is in fact something done - this is why many countries such as the Brasil, the Morocco, the South africa have had the truth and reconciliation commissions to expose the state terror that is the torture and prevent the reoccurances. Even the French have opened the archives to historians to write about their similar errors and crimes which they committed against the Algerians. The pretension that everyone hides is a false pretension, it is using a deception. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/459 "2014-12-11T12:51:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So where do these things move from unpleasant to really unpleasant to horrendous to torture? It probably depends on the person, but a week is probably close to the limit of human endurance. I know personally that sleep deprivation of a few days is really unpleasant – close to the worst physical discomfort of my life. A week would be unimaginable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/460 "2014-12-11T12:54:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > According to my good friend who was a Marine Drill Instructor at Parris Island, Terr’s description is 100% correct. According to me, who was trained (at Navy OCS) by some Marine Drill Instructors from Parris Island, nothing in Basic Training is comparable to the torture detailed in the Senate report. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=24)