# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/501 "2014-12-11T17:28:27Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They’re not all enemy combatants, and it doesn’t extract information. They tortured their own spies, remember? Point to one non-combatant that was tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/502 "2014-12-11T17:29:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, are you saying we should change the law to allow that? Because it’s not currently legal. It was legal when it was done. In fact, legal dispensation was explicitly given for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/503 "2014-12-11T17:29:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I needed to run, but just want to quickly address this. A few points: > > 1. From what I read, both via the spots here about the report and the article, it does not appear that rectal feeding and a protruding rectum have a close relationship. I think the report relates one instance of that happening. In the article, it talks about the condition in a way that doesn’t tie it to some violent behavior. The condition itself is horrific. Just like a compound fracture of the femur, or a complete amputation of the leg, is horrific. It doesn’t matter how it was arrived at, it’s a horrific medical condition. > [@](#): > > 1. There IS a medical benefit beyond providing nutrients. Both to the prisoner and those caring for him. The fewer encounters in which a prisoner has to be restrained for an IV to be administered or a feeding tube to be inserted the better. Particularly when the prisoner is of the violent I would kill you if I had the chance type. This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever – the prisoner has to be restrained for an IV or feeding tube, but not for _rectal feeding_? Further, the rectal feeding provides a higher risk of serious health risks, like anal fissures or prolapse. In any case, it doesn’t justify punishment – by this justification, they could pull out his fingernails, or hammer his testicles, until he agreed to stop his water refusal. > [@](#): > > Also, a doctor friend of mine told me once that the fewer IVs administered even in hospitals the better. The same would apply to rectal feedings. Further, I doubt this doctor friend advocated torturing someone who refused an IV. > [@](#): > > You use “punishment”. You can choose to characterize the action as such, but that’s just your bias coming through. More benignly, it is coercive. Is their unpleasantness involved? Sure. But like I said, I think I’d rather have that than being force fed with a tube. That’s not bias – what else is it? They’re refusing water, and IVs don’t “motivate” them enough (e.g. don’t punish them enough), and rectal feeding is so unpleasant that it motivates them to stop refusing water. Which means it’s totally ridiculous that you’d rather have this procedure, which is apparently _so physically painful and unpleasant_ that detainees will stop their water/hunger strikes to avoid it. Unless you have… unusual feelings about your butt. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/504 "2014-12-11T17:31:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. There is quite a lot that I would object to government doing. For example, applying the same techniques described to US citizens. I am sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but applying severe physical pressure to a very limited number of enemy combatants in order to extract information is just not something I am very worried about. Why would you oppose applying those techniques to US citizens who happen to be domestic terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/505 "2014-12-11T17:31:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. There is quite a lot that I would object to government doing. For example, applying the same techniques described to US citizens. I am sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but applying severe physical pressure to a very limited number of enemy combatants in order to extract information is just not something I am very worried about. How do you know they were enemy combatants? You really trust them that much? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/506 "2014-12-11T17:32:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. There is quite a lot that I would object to government doing. For example, applying the same techniques described to US citizens. I am sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but applying severe physical pressure to a **very limited number of enemy combatants** in order to extract information is just not something I am very worried about. Ah, the “sub-humans”. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/507 "2014-12-11T17:33:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It was legal when it was done. In fact, legal dispensation was explicitly given for it. Their legal counsel, John Yoo, said that they could legally torture children. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually true that they could legally torture children. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/508 "2014-12-11T17:33:24Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Why would you oppose applying those techniques to US citizens who happen to be domestic terrorists? Because of Constitutional rights that apply to US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/509 "2014-12-11T17:35:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know they were enemy combatants? You really trust them that much? Because out of thousands and thousands of captured enemies, only around 100 were in that interrogation program and only 30 were subject to the “enhanced interrogations”. If CIA just wanted to torture people for the hell of it, they wouldn’t be this discriminating. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/510 "2014-12-11T17:39:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, are you saying we should change the law to allow that? Because it’s not currently legal. tbf, the poster is just reflecting the view of the President and Vice President at the relevant time. That’s how insane it is. Here Cheney lies about his justification: > **[Dick Cheney defends use of torture on al-Qaida leaders](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/09/dick-cheney-defends-torture-al-qaida)** > > Former US vice-president says Bin Laden would not have been found without information gathered by waterboarding ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/511 "2014-12-11T17:40:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As to the question of prosecutions: > > A) We do not know that there will be none (although I suspect that there will not). The Justice Department did not see the report (to the limited extent that it has been released) any sooner than anyone else. It takes time to put together an actual indictment and there has clearly been so such time, yet. > > B) Even if the DoJ does attempt to prosecute, so much of the information regarding the persons involved is still classified that bringing any particular person to trial is problematic, at best. > > C) And there is the further problem that the Bush administration selectively chose specific lawyers to vet these activities and approve them in advance. Bringing to trial a person who had the approval of the DoJ for his actions will result in court actions that will take decades to resolve. Perhaps I’m missing something but ISTM that much of the discussion of possible prosecution has ignored or overlooked the fact that the matter has already been investigated by the Justice Department (under Eric Holder) which decided not to prosecute. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/us/holder-rules-out-prosecutions-in-cia-interrogations.html?\_r=2&pagewanted=1&&pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/us/holder-rules-out-prosecutions-in-cia-interrogations.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&&pagewanted=all) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/512 "2014-12-11T17:45:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It was legal when it was done. In fact, legal dispensation was explicitly given for it. Not by anyone with authority to do so. You can always find someone to cook up some excuse if you look hard enough. That doesn’t make it legal. Now, I don’t expect anyone to be prosecuted for what was done, but if it happens again n the future, all bets are off, and we don’t need to change any laws to do so. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/513 "2014-12-11T17:46:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because out of thousands and thousands of captured enemies, only around 100 were in that interrogation program and only 30 were subject to the “enhanced interrogations”. If CIA just wanted to torture people for the hell of it, they wouldn’t be this discriminating. I don’t think they wanted to torture people “for the hell of it” – I think they wanted to torture people they thought had useful info. I think it’s very likely that there were some non-combatants who might have had useful info, and I don’t trust that all CIA agents (and their contractors) are honest and moral enough to not try and claim that a captured non-combatant is actually a combatant so they can torture him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/514 "2014-12-11T17:47:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because of Constitutional rights that apply to US citizens. Would you support or oppose the CIA’s right to torture for information, say, the non-citizen 11 year old daughter of a terrorist who might have very valuable information about her father and his activities? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/515 "2014-12-11T17:48:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not by anyone with authority to do so. You can always find someone to cook up some excuse if you look hard enough. That doesn’t make it legal. > > Now, I don’t expect anyone to be prosecuted for what was done, but if it happens again n the future, all bets are off, and we don’t need to change any laws to do so. The reason it is not being prosecuted is because it was legal at the time. And just because the laws don’t need to be changed doesn’t mean it was not legal. It just means the interpretation changed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/516 "2014-12-11T17:49:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think they wanted to torture people “for the hell of it” – I think they wanted to torture people they thought had useful info. And only a very few of those. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/517 "2014-12-11T17:49:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think they wanted to torture people they thought had useful info. That was a _justification_ The reason they did it was because … they were just following orders. Yep, it rings a bell. The point is the hierarchy; that those in command became depraved and those under them obeyed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/518 "2014-12-11T17:50:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Would you support or oppose the CIA’s right to torture for information, say, the non-citizen 11 year old daughter of a terrorist who might have very valuable information about her father and his activities? If not, why not? Only if she was a confirmed enemy combatant. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/519 "2014-12-11T17:54:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if she was a confirmed enemy combatant. An 11 year old? Seriously? Remember this post, Dopers… **Terr** admits that he would support torturing an 11 year old girl, as long as she was classified as an “enemy combatant”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/520 "2014-12-11T17:55:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Only if she was a confirmed enemy combatant. You would torture a pre-teen child that _might_ have info? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=27)