# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/541 "2014-12-11T18:30:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. Obama considers his executive power grab on immigration legal. Is it legal? How are Obama’s executive orders on immigration different than those of the last several presidents? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/542 "2014-12-11T18:31:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How? It will probably be challenged in court, and ultimately (once it’s made our way through various appeals and circuits) that will (probably) tell us whether our legal system considers it legal or not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/543 "2014-12-11T18:32:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, I meant “torture” in the context being discussed. Loud music, sleep deprivation, forced standing, other physical and psychological pressure methods that do not reach the “real torture” levels. Why do you oppose “real torture” for enemy combatants? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/544 "2014-12-11T18:33:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because I think they wanted tactics that could be argued were not torture. So then - there are actions that are unequivocally torture. And there are actions that could be argued are not torture. Right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/545 "2014-12-11T18:34:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So then - there are actions that are unequivocally torture. And there are actions that could be argued are not torture. Right? Anything can be argued to be anything. I don’t think forcible sleep deprivation for a week can be credibly or reasonably argued to not be torture. I don’t think non-medically-necessary rectal feeding by force that causes anal fissures and rectal prolapse can be credibly or reasonably argued to not be torture. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/546 "2014-12-11T18:35:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why do you oppose “real torture” for enemy combatants? Unnecessary. Because milder methods work just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Theios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e8c25b/32.png) [@Theios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theios)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/547 "2014-12-11T18:36:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m learning a lot about some Dopers here. Stuff that really surprises me. I’m completely disgusted with what I’m learning about some of my fellow Dopers. I’m still completely confused on how anyone would think these actions were legal under the Geneva Conventions. I’m guessing since we have veto power in the security council, nothing will come of these violations. The fact that we, the US, can do these things and get away with it, while other nations have done the same and were brought to trial, seems very unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/548 "2014-12-11T18:36:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Anything can be argued to be anything. I don’t think forcible sleep deprivation for a week can be credibly or reasonably argued to not be torture. As compared to pulling nails with pliers? I think it can. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/549 "2014-12-11T18:36:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Unnecessary. Because milder methods work just as well. How do you know? You don’t think anyone is tough enough to resist sleep deprivation, but not tough enough to resist testicle-hammering? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/550 "2014-12-11T18:37:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, there are limits. I would limit it at real torture. Not loud music, sleep deprivation and awkward standing positions torture. And where would we get the definition of torture that you would limit it at? Only those things YOU don’t consider torture? Further, you would watch our enemies treating American troops the same way - loud music, sleep deprivation, awkward standing positions, and not feel like they were being mistreated? You would think “Well, as long as they are not being tortured, that’s just what happens in war” ?? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/551 "2014-12-11T18:37:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How do you know? Fact: worked in this case. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/552 "2014-12-11T18:39:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As compared to pulling nails with pliers? I think it can. What does a comparison have to do with it? Compare pulling nails with pliers to skinning someone slowly for days while bathing them in mild acid and shoving needles into their genitals. That doesn’t make one torture and the other not torture – they’re both torture. As is waterboarding, long-term sleep deprivation, stress positions with broken limbs, shoving stuff up peoples’ butts without medical need, etc. Not every interrogation was torture. But many were, based on the report. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/553 "2014-12-11T18:39:28Z")
This thread is amazing. **The GOP, the party of forced sodomy on helpless people!™** ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/554 "2014-12-11T18:40:28Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And where would we get the definition of torture that you would limit it at? Only those things YOU don’t consider torture? > > Further, you would watch our enemies treating American troops the same way - loud music, sleep deprivation, awkward standing positions, and not feel like they were being mistreated? You would think “Well, as long as they are not being tortured, that’s just what happens in war” ?? Once again, with emphasis: the CIA, out of multiple thousands of captive enemy combatants, selected less than 100 for the interrogation program, and only used the extreme methods of interrogation on 30 or so of them - those whom they considered high enough in the enemy hierarchy to have critical information. They didn’t just willy-nilly torture people for the hell of it to get their jollies, or as punishment for fighting us etc. If that is the case in our enemies treating some Americans - yes, I would say “that’s just what happens in war”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/555 "2014-12-11T18:40:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Fact: worked in this case. That doesn’t compute. Not that there’s any documented textual evidence that it worked (only “CIA guys say it worked”), but even if there was, this wouldn’t tell us anything about whether other tactics would work better. There’s no way to know if we got all the information out of every captive that they knew. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/556 "2014-12-11T18:41:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What does a comparison have to do with it? As compared to “real torture”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/557 "2014-12-11T18:42:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Once again, with emphasis: the CIA, out of multiple thousands of captive enemy combatants, selected less than 100 for the interrogation program, and only used the extreme methods of interrogation on 30 or so of them - those whom they considered high enough in the enemy hierarchy to have critical information. They didn’t just willy-nilly torture people for the hell of it to get their jollies, or as punishment for fighting us etc. > > If that is the case in our enemies treating some Americans - yes, I would say “that’s just what happens in war”. In war, after you’re captured, sometimes stuff gets shoved up your butt and causes anal fissures and rectal prolapse with no medical need. Sure, makes sense. I’m sure this would be great comfort to soldiers and their families who come home with permanent damage to their butts, along with the psychological damage from having people force stuff up your butt. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/558 "2014-12-11T18:43:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As compared to “real torture”. They’re both “real torture”. Sleep deprivation causes pain and discomfort for just a day or two. For a week, this would certainly be severe, on top of the mental anguish – which definitely fits “real torture”. What about waterboarding – “real torture” to you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/559 "2014-12-11T18:44:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It will probably be challenged in court, and ultimately (once it’s made our way through various appeals and circuits) that will (probably) tell us whether our legal system considers it legal or not. But until the process concludes, is it legal or not? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/560 "2014-12-11T18:44:54Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This thread is amazing. **The GOP, the party of forced sodomy on helpless people!™** Point of order: While I certainly agree that there are more Republicans than Democrats who support the use of EIT, this is not a partisan issue. There are plenty of Democrats out there who are down with the tortures, and plenty of Republicans who oppose it (like former presidential candidate John McCain, who provided an astoundingly eloquent speech on the Senate floor yesterday.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=29)