# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/41 "2014-12-09T19:10:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Agreed, WRT this or any other issue. > > How do you distinguish (if you do) between torture on the one hand, and bombings or other military and police actions on the other? The definition of torture is very different: “the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.” There are no circumstances (barring sci-fi “aliens order you to torture babies or they will destroy Earth” silliness) in which this is okay. There are some circumstances in which bombings and other military actions are okay. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/42 "2014-12-09T19:12:37Z")
OK, but what’s the difference from a moral standpoint? ISTM that the equation is the same. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/43 "2014-12-09T19:22:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but what’s the difference from a moral standpoint? ISTM that the equation is the same. I think the difference is the intentional infliction of pain. Sure, there are collateral civilian deaths in bombing raids and those are to be minimized as much as possible, but we aren’t intentionally trying to cause human pain and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/44 "2014-12-09T19:27:10Z")
But you’re certainly trying to kill the people that you’re bombing/shooting etc. And there’s certainly a non-zero possibilty that some of these people might be innocent and/or possible to neutralize without killing them and/or the broader threat might not be neutralized even if these people are killed, as is the case with torture. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/45 "2014-12-09T19:37:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > One thing that interests me is the debate over whether the torture was effective, which seems to be a debate about hypotheticals. > > Apparently the torture did yield useful information, and the claims that suggest otherwise merely assert _“that the information revealed through torture could have been obtained through other means”._ So a lot depends on how solid that assessment is. I just read the article covering it on Fox News. It states the program was successful, but not all detainees were subject to the “enhanced interrogation techniques” that are so troubling. I’m absolutely positive the program garnered a lot of information, but how much of that information was directly because of the enhanced techniques? One example given in the article states that a particular detainee was productive in leading agents to the courier that eventually led to Bin Laden, but then says that guy didn’t get the enhanced techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/46 "2014-12-09T19:39:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The definition of torture is very different: “the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.” There are no circumstances (barring sci-fi “aliens order you to torture babies or they will destroy Earth” silliness) in which this is okay. From your post above: “Abu Zubaydah was subjected to more than a month of “enhanced interrogation” (including loud, constant music, terrible food, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation), at the end of which he was described by CIA interrogators as “clearly a broken man” and “on the verge of a complete breakdown”.” There was no “severe pain” involved. Was Abu Zubaydah tortured? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/47 "2014-12-09T19:39:29Z")
The laws of war limit the ways that bombing and shooting can be done specifically to minimize the killing and injuring of people who are not combatants - e.g. bans on poison gas, landmines, biological weaponry, etc. - and the unnecessary suffering even of those who are combatants. It is a regrettable fact that unnecessary death and suffering will happen, but the idea behind the laws of war is to at least try to keep it to a minimum. Torturing people is morally equivalent to saying “Fuck it, let’s use nerve gas.” It’s a deliberate decision to INCREASE people’s suffering beyond the minimum necessary to achieve military ends. It’s horrible beyond belief. I wonder what would happen if U.S. police forces decided to routinely torture ordinary Americans to get confessions for ordinary crimes. How would they feel if the IRS tortured people as part of a tax audit? If that’s not okay, why’s it okay to torture Iraqis? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/48 "2014-12-09T19:41:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But you’re certainly trying to kill the people that you’re bombing/shooting etc. And there’s certainly a non-zero possibilty that some of these people might be innocent and/or possible to neutralize without killing them and/or the broader threat might not be neutralized even if these people are killed, as is the case with torture. You’re having trouble with the difference between military action and willfully torturing people? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/49 "2014-12-09T19:42:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The laws of war limit the ways that bombing and shooting can be done specifically to minimize the killing and injuring of people who are not combatants - e.g. bans on poison gas, landmines, biological weaponry, etc. - and the unnecessary suffering even of those who are combatants. It is a regrettable fact that unnecessary death and suffering will happen, but the idea behind the laws of war is to at least try to keep it to a minimum. > > Torturing people is morally equivalent to saying “Fuck it, let’s use nerve gas.” It’s a deliberate decision to INCREASE people’s suffering beyond the minimum necessary to achieve military ends. It’s horrible beyond belief. All the bans you note: poison gas, landmines, biological weaponry - are not because of “unnecessary suffering”. The reason for such bans are because such methods are not discriminating. Torture, on the other hand, is about as pinpoint as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/50 "2014-12-09T19:44:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s easy to condemn torture if you claim it doesn’t work. It’s more cynical than that. You can’t argue against peverse machinations of the security state using moral arguments. People care whether something works or doesn’t, or whether something has propaganda value and hurts your image. The most effective anti-torture argument is similar to that of mass bombing. Not that it wouldn’t work, but that it negatively affects American soft power and creates a situation where allies and satellite states are less likely to do what we say. It’s managerial in scope, not moral. Another decent one I see here and there is the game theory tit for tat argument, that if we torture then we can expect to be tortured back. But that’s murky; how do you realistically signal a lack of torture either way? Hard to build trust. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/51 "2014-12-09T19:45:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Torturing people is morally equivalent to saying “Fuck it, let’s use nerve gas.” It’s a deliberate decision to INCREASE people’s suffering beyond the minimum necessary to achieve military ends. I don’t know why you would say this. The whole point of torturing these people is in order to achieve military ends. If someone decides to torture people beyond that level, then that’s not what we’re discussing here. > [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re having trouble with the difference between military action and willfully torturing people? Really? I’m not having any trouble. I don’t think there is a difference. The ones having trouble would be those who want to maintain that there’s a difference but who can’t provide anything more substantive than to say “Really?” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/52 "2014-12-09T19:48:12Z")
I’d think the since the GOP’s base is largely made up of Christians, they might not like torture, since, you know, their God was tortured to death. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/53 "2014-12-09T19:49:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But you’re certainly trying to kill the people that you’re bombing/shooting etc. And there’s certainly a non-zero possibilty that some of these people might be innocent and/or possible to neutralize without killing them and/or the broader threat might not be neutralized even if these people are killed, as is the case with torture. Military action is meant to kill the enemy. Sometimes that can include civilians as well as military and certainly the attacks can inflict great pain but that is not the goal or even desirable. In the end you want the enemy to capitulate and the attacks end. In the case of torture the explicit purpose is to inflict pain and often great care is taken to not let the person being tortured die or pass out. Drawing out the agony is intentional. The purpose being to coerce bogus confessions and/or cow the populace. There is really no end to it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/54 "2014-12-09T19:49:40Z")
> [@aag3981](#): > > I just read the article covering it on Fox News. Do yourself a favour: don’t. Nothing Fox News says on a topic can be trusted, let alone something as controversial as the government committing war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/55 "2014-12-09T19:52:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t know why you would say this. The whole point of torturing these people is in order to achieve military ends. > > If someone decides to torture people beyond that level, then that’s not what we’re discussing here.I’m not having any trouble. I don’t think there is a difference. The ones having trouble would be those who want to maintain that there’s a difference but who can’t provide anything more substantive than to say “Really?” I have more substantive things to say, I just wanted to assess how utterly you have failed to understand the issue. Pretty utterly, I’d say. Dude, military force is designed to achieve an objective without needless suffering. Torture is an alternate system of interrogation that has numerous false positives and is less effective than traditional methods. Its use is the same thing as willfully dropping napalm on a wedding. Pointless savagery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/56 "2014-12-09T19:53:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, but what’s the difference from a moral standpoint? ISTM that the equation is the same. From a moral standpoint? Deliberately inflicting severe pain because of some benefit one thinks the pain will produce (pleasure for the inflicter, or information from the inflicted, for example), is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/57 "2014-12-09T19:54:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > From your post above: > > “Abu Zubaydah was subjected to more than a month of “enhanced interrogation” (including loud, constant music, terrible food, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation), at the end of which he was described by CIA interrogators as “clearly a broken man” and “on the verge of a complete breakdown”.” > > There was no “severe pain” involved. Was Abu Zubaydah tortured? Loud, constant music, terrible food, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation probably could cause “severe pain”. I’ve felt pain from sleep deprivation before. Were it for a longer time, I think it’s likely the pain would have become “severe”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/58 "2014-12-09T19:56:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > All the bans you note: poison gas, landmines, biological weaponry - are not because of “unnecessary suffering”. The reason for such bans are because such methods are not discriminating. Torture, on the other hand, is about as pinpoint as it gets. The ban on torture isn’t due to unnecessary suffering – it’s due to barbarity and cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![aag3981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@aag3981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aag3981)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/59 "2014-12-09T20:00:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Do yourself a favour: don’t. Nothing Fox News says on a topic can be trusted, let alone something as controversial as the government committing war crimes. I know but I usually try and read conservative sides and that was the first I came across. It’s interesting to read the different tone of those articles. In this article particular, the emphasis on the _Democratic-led panel_ that conducted the investigation and how the program itself was very productive in providing intelligence _but maybe not the torture part specifically._ Also, this release will risk the lives of Americans overseas (_not the torture we sanctioned and we acknowledge using which the reporting is just confirming)._ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/60 "2014-12-09T20:01:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Loud, constant music, terrible food, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation probably could cause “severe pain”. I’ve felt pain from sleep deprivation before. Were it for a longer time, I think it’s likely the pain would have become “severe”. This. The notion that psychological manipulation, sensory- and sleep deprivation, and constant noise cannot be considered torture simply because they do not involve thumbscrews or pliers is terribly naive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=4)