# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/581 "2014-12-11T19:00:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is no documented textual evidence that it didn’t work (only “Democrats on the committee say it didn’t work, Republicans on the same committee say it did”). Have you read the report? The CIA reported that certain information from KSM was gathered from the “enhanced techniques” (like getting the mastermind of the Bali bombing), but the text from the CIA documents show that this information came from other sources. So we know that the CIA lied. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/582 "2014-12-11T19:00:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks for telling me something I’ve read already. AND emphasizing it! > > However, that didn’t answer my question of - What definition of torture would you use, in order to limit our treatment of prisoners to not torture? The methods that the CIA used. I would probably exclude that “rectal feeding” thing - since that was not medically sanctioned, it was not justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/583 "2014-12-11T19:01:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Depends. Does it leave permanent physical damage or long-term health problems? Is the information I am seeking extremely critical? Let’s say yes, and yes. A torture technique that causes permanent physical and psychological damage is found to be more effective, and interrogators are certain that a specific detainee has this info. Would you support or oppose this method be used? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/584 "2014-12-11T19:01:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Have you read the report? The CIA reported that certain information from KSM was gathered from the “enhanced techniques” (like getting the mastermind of the Bali bombing), but the text from the CIA documents show that this information came from other sources. So we know that the CIA lied. Not according to the Committee’s minority report. Which missed being a majority report by a few months, right? If it was the majority report, would you have been trumpeting it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/585 "2014-12-11T19:03:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Let’s say yes, and yes. Then no. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/586 "2014-12-11T19:04:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then no. Why not? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/587 "2014-12-11T19:06:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not according to the Committee’s minority report. Which missed being a majority report by a few months, right? If it was the majority report, would you have been trumpeting it? I’m looking at the text of the CIA documents. That’s not written by Senators, but by the CIA. The CIA says that the information about the Bali bomber came from other sources, but they earlier said it came from torturing KSM. The CIA lied earlier (or lied in the documents). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/588 "2014-12-11T19:09:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why not? Because it would cause permanent damage. That’s one of the lines I draw. At that point forced interrogation becomes punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/589 "2014-12-11T19:10:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The methods that the CIA used. I would probably exclude that “rectal feeding” thing - since that was not medically sanctioned, it was not justifiable. A list of methods is not a definition of torture that can be used to determine if new methods are or are not torture. Do you have a definition that you would compare other methods to, to determine if they are torture? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/590 "2014-12-11T19:10:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m looking at the text of the CIA documents. That’s not written by Senators, but by the CIA. The CIA says that the information about the Bali bomber came from other sources, but they earlier said it came from torturing KSM. The CIA lied earlier (or lied in the documents). I gave you the cite, earlier, from six former CIA chiefs that say the program was effective. I believe they have the expertise and had access to know. You think they are liars. There’s not much to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/591 "2014-12-11T19:13:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because it would cause permanent damage. That’s one of the lines I draw. At that point forced interrogation becomes punishment. Let me guess…you’re not considering permanent psychological damage in that, right? Only physical? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/592 "2014-12-11T19:14:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I gave you the cite, earlier, from six former CIA chiefs that say the program was effective. I believe they have the expertise and had access to know. You think they are liars. There’s not much to discuss. They were attempting to protect their reputations, and they brought nothing to the table to counter the tons of evidence except their "Nuh _Uh_!"s. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/593 "2014-12-11T19:15:04Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Let me guess…you’re not considering permanent psychological damage in that, right? Only physical? Too nebulous. If you can show, definitively, that the technique will, 100%, cause permanent psychological damage - maybe. I doubt you can. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/594 "2014-12-11T19:16:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They were attempting to protect their reputations, and they brought nothing to the table to counter the tons of evidence except their "Nuh _Uh_!"s. Again, you consider all six of them liars. I don’t. Not much to discuss, is there? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/595 "2014-12-11T19:19:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because it would cause permanent damage. That’s one of the lines I draw. At that point forced interrogation becomes punishment. So what? Why would you oppose this if it might provide better information to intelligence officers? Why do you draw this line? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/596 "2014-12-11T19:20:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I gave you the cite, earlier, from six former CIA chiefs that say the program was effective. I believe they have the expertise and had access to know. You think they are liars. There’s not much to discuss. I don’t know for sure if they lied (or were falsely informed), but either they are lying (or inadvertently spreading false information), or the CIA officers who wrote the partially redacted text are lying (or wrote false information). Both the CIA documents and what the CIA told Congress can’t be true – they directly conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/597 "2014-12-11T19:21:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you consider all six of them liars. I don’t. Not much to discuss, is there? Not if you believe them and their lack of evidence and their denial of CIA reportage over the mounds of evidence-no, there really isn’t. Why you continue to argue in this thread about the report if your whole attitude is going to be “They said it-I believe it-That’s all there is to it” is really beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/598 "2014-12-11T19:22:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Too nebulous. If you can show, definitively, that the technique will, 100%, cause permanent psychological damage - maybe. I doubt you can. Fair enough. So where’s the line? Ripping out fingernails with pliers, which you have repeatedly used as an example of “real” torture, might not cause permanent physical damage–certainly not a 100% guarantee. Waterboarding, which for some bizarre reason you do _not_ consider torture \*might \*cause permanent physical damage. What likelihood are you happy with? 90%? 75%? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/599 "2014-12-11T19:33:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I gave you the cite, earlier, from six former CIA chiefs that say the program was effective. I believe they have the expertise and had access to know. You think they are liars. There’s not much to discuss. Flag on the play: Appeal to authority ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/600 "2014-12-11T19:42:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > An 11 year old? Seriously? > > Remember this post, Dopers… **Terr** admits that he would support torturing an 11 year old girl, as long as she was classified as an “enemy combatant”. To be fair if I was willing to torture a 35 year old male who looked like a Hollywood cast boogie-man of a terrorist, I would also torture an 11 yr old girl in otherwise identical circumstances. I’d also put a controlled pair in either of their chests if lethal force was called for in attempting to capture them. The appeal to emotion is powerful. It’s also logically weak if we’re just looking at whether torture was justified in general [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=31)