# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/661 "2014-12-12T02:20:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Zadydas v. Davis: > > “It is well established that certain constitutional protections available to persons inside the United States are unavailable to aliens outside of our geographic borders. See United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 269 (1990) (Fifth Amendment’s protections do not extend to aliens outside the territorial boundaries); Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) (same).” So they deliberately set up a situation where the Constitution didn’t apply. Why would they do that if it was legal? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/662 "2014-12-12T05:10:47Z")
The UN [Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment](https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?mtdsg_no=IV-9&chapter=4&lang=en) is a ratified treaty and therefore part of US law. You’ll find everything you need in it. They didn’t set up situations where the Constitution, and treaties ratified according to it, didn’t apply legally, only ones where it didn’t apply _de facto_ - where there was no danger of getting adverse enforcement by the competent authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/663 "2014-12-12T05:18:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Every one of the more than twenty occurrences of the word “citizen” in the U. S. Constitution refers to citizenship, voting rights, eligibility for public office, or judicial action. > The Constitution does not limit any protection from government action to “citizens” either explicitly or implicitly. Rather, it extends Constitutional protections against government actions to all persons. I’m not sure that’s completely correct. If the authors of the Constitution didn’t want to make the distinction between citizens and persons, then why does the 5th Amendment begin with…No\*\*\* person \*\*\*shall be held to answer… Clearly they wanted the 5th to apply to everyone. Yet the 14th Amendment states; …No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of _ **citizens** _ of the United States… Here, they want to apply it to citizens, not merely resident “people.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/664 "2014-12-12T06:03:41Z")
😛 > [@Terr](#): > > Zadydas v. Davis: > > “It is well established that certain constitutional protections available to persons inside the United States are unavailable to aliens outside of our geographic borders. See United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 269 (1990) (Fifth Amendment’s protections do not extend to aliens outside the territorial boundaries); Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U.S. 763, 784 (1950) (same).” This was dishonest when Bush used it. The protections unavailable to aliens outside the U.S. were the natural result of the U.S. not exercising control in other countries due to the sovereignty of those countries. The fiction that Guantanamo was not under U.S. control is part and parcel with the desperate need for the U.S. to engage in ineffectively, barbaric practices as directed by ignorant men lacking in both honesty and knowledge. It is exactly the sort of dishonest dishonor that got us into Iraq and ultimately has led to the creation of ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/665 "2014-12-12T06:10:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’m not sure that’s completely correct. If the authors of the Constitution didn’t want to make the distinction between citizens and persons, then why does the 5th Amendment begin with…No\*\*\* person \*\*\*shall be held to answer… > > Clearly they wanted the 5th to apply to everyone. > > Yet the 14th Amendment states; …No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of _ **citizens** _ of the United States… > > Here, they want to apply it to citizens, not merely resident “people.” Because the Fourteenth was written with the understanding that the Fifth was already in force with the intent to prevent the (Secessionist) states from abridging the rights of citizens, such as the right to vote. Immunities was not an immunity from torture that was already covered under cruel and unusual punishments. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/666 "2014-12-12T06:30:39Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’m not sure that’s completely correct. If the authors of the Constitution didn’t want to make the distinction between citizens and persons, then why does the 5th Amendment begin with…No\*\*\* person \*\*\*shall be held to answer… > > Clearly they wanted the 5th to apply to everyone. > > Yet the 14th Amendment states; …No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of _ **citizens** _ of the United States… > > Here, they want to apply it to citizens, not merely resident “people.” 1: The authors of the Constitution and the authors of the 14th Amendment aren’t the same “they”. B: No, they aren’t saying they want it to apply to only citizens, they’re saying the States shall not make or enforce any law which abridges the privileges or immunities (the first Eight Amendments of the Constitution/[Article IV, Section. 2](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_America#Section_2_4)) of citizens of the United States. If I’m reading [John Bingham](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileges_or_Immunities_Clause#Pre-Slaughter-House) correctly this is the first(?) attempt at [Incorporation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_of_the_Bill_of_Rights#Incorporation_under_Privileges_or_Immunities) . . . then come the _Slaughterhouse Cases_. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/667 "2014-12-12T10:37:59Z")
The American Constitution is completely irrelevant. Torture is banned as an international norm with no exceptions permitted, and it’s literally one of the few things virtually every civilised country in the world agrees on along with prohibitions against genocide and slavery. It does not matter one iota whether the torture was happening in sites within the territory of the United States, outside of it, whether those being tortured were American citizens, citizens of American allies, or citizens of America’s enemies. Its use is ipso facto illegal no matter who is doing it or to whom. As noted previously by a poster, the Japanese use of waterboarding, the very same technique the CIA was using, was enough to convict Japanese military leaders and have them sentenced to death in the aftermath of WW2. There is literally no reasonable ambiguity as to whether the CIA was acting against well-established international norms. Any discussion of what the United States Constitution permits—and to be honest I’d be astonished if the Constitution did actually permit non-citizens to be tortured, seeing as the Anglo-American legal tradition had already prohibited the use of torture for centuries before it was written, as noted earlier—serves as nothing more than a distraction from what is a factually, morally and legally an entirely one-sided debate. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/668 "2014-12-12T11:32:33Z")
Very true. The point of the Constitution excursion was that after pretending that the torture did not occur, Terr threw in the extraneous invalid claim that the Constitution protected only citizens. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/669 "2014-12-12T11:39:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Except, the _reason_ that this argument is correct is that human beings largely recognize torture as immoral. Not “largely.” Without exception. Those who differ are welcome to infer an assertion about their humanity. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/670 "2014-12-12T11:47:21Z")
By the way, what the fuck is the “severe” death? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/671 "2014-12-12T12:57:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Very true. > The point of the Constitution excursion was that after pretending that the torture did not occur, Terr threw in the extraneous invalid claim that the **Constitution protected only citizens.** Wrong. Read again what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/672 "2014-12-12T12:59:04Z")
How is this even a discussion worth having? Waterboarding is torture. I welcome anyone who disagrees with that statement to go get waterboarded. We used waterboarding and other techniques which similarly fall under the purview of “torture” to anyone who isn’t a freakin’ psychopath on enemy combatants. Torture is _not okay_. There are a handful of extremely fringe cases where it is acceptable (such as where you need the answer ASAP to save someone’s life, and the answer is easily checked and verified - in other words, life or death, _and_ they can’t lie about it without you knowing), and those did not apply here. I welcome anyone who disagrees with this statement to go get waterboarded (preferably by enemy combatants, who aren’t going to stop when you can’t take it any more). How have we had 14 pages of people justifying this shit? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/673 "2014-12-12T13:18:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Read again what I wrote. And what you wrote was irrelevant. Your point that Constitutional protection ends at the US border is quite pointless. The point is that the US was signatory to a UN Convention that prohibits its members to practice torture on anyone anywhere. Whether waterboarding is done in the Capitol Rotunda, Gitmo, the high seas, or on the moon is totally irrelevant. The US may not torture anyone of any nationality at any place for any reason and may not farm it out to anyone who does. There are no exceptions, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/674 "2014-12-12T13:22:57Z")
It is in fact very simple. The **very same set of these practices** were by the USA labelled as **torture** when others engaged in them, whether the KGB or the Gestapo or the Japanese. And where they could the USA or the allies of the USA have prosecuted those who engaged in these practices against the soldiers or the civilians or the partisan guerrillas / nonuniformed resistance fighters (the ‘enemy combatant’). Now to pretend that is the Americans do it, it is not actually torture is to adopt the langauge and the habits of the Soviets and the totalitarians with their double language. It is that simple. Do the americans want to be known to be adopting the double think of the Soviets? Or do they want to keep to the culture and the values of the democratic republics? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/675 "2014-12-12T13:25:49Z")
I may have been naive, but I was convinced that no one with an iota of decency and humanity would defend this to any extent. It saddens me to have been proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/676 "2014-12-12T13:31:22Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I may have been naive, but I was convinced that no one with an iota of decency and humanity would defend this to any extent. It saddens me to have been proven wrong. I’m not sure that you have. Perhaps the defenders don’t have an iota of decency or humanity. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/677 "2014-12-12T13:31:45Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I may have been naive, but I was convinced that no one with an iota of decency and humanity would defend this to any extent. It saddens me to have been proven wrong. Indeed. It’s just extraordinary that this is a discussion. Last I looked in here, anal rape of 11-year old girls was okay as long as someone decided they were ‘eneny combatants’. Remind me, who’s the good guys here? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/678 "2014-12-12T13:59:13Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Indeed. It’s just extraordinary that this is a discussion. > > Last I looked in here, anal rape of 11-year old girls was okay as long as someone decided they were ‘eneny combatants’. > > Remind me, who’s the good guys here? I’m not surprised that there’s _someone_ defending it. What surprises me is that it’s pretty much just **Terr**. Color me pleasantly surprised, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/679 "2014-12-12T14:28:18Z")
Ok, well if that’s the case why not just ignore that person and talk about the substantive issues like accountability - who are the main criminals here? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/680 "2014-12-12T14:41:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m not surprised that there’s _someone_ defending it. What surprises me is that it’s pretty much just **Terr**. Color me pleasantly surprised, I guess. At this point, it’s just a matter of waiting until his arguments reach the paper-towel-tube level (assuming they haven’t yet done so). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=35)