# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/681 "2014-12-12T14:44:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This thread is amazing. **The GOP, the party of forced sodomy on helpless people!™** Well, when you look at [the psychological science](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn), it’s not really surprising. > [@](#): > > When viewing lesbian sex and straight sex, both the homophobic and the non-homophobic men showed increased penis circumference. For gay male sex, however, only the homophobic men showed heightened penis arousal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/682 "2014-12-12T15:00:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m not surprised that there’s _someone_ defending it. What surprises me is that it’s pretty much just **Terr**. Color me pleasantly surprised, I guess. That’s because **Terr** is even more of a patriot than George Washington. (Insert sarcastic smiley here.) “Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/683 "2014-12-12T15:28:10Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > That’s because **Terr** is even more of a patriot than George Washington. (Insert sarcastic smiley here.) It’s true, since ol’ George only meant physical injuries. Causing mental trauma is hunky-dory, natch. Also he only meant prisoners who were U.S. citizens.[/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/684 "2014-12-12T15:56:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Do the americans want to be known to be adopting the double think of the Soviets? Or do they want to keep to the culture and the values of the democratic republics? You do realize that you should be having a very hard time grouping all Americans, all 316.1 million of them, together in one heap. I’m not sure why you focus on the vast minority of posters in this thread who don’t have a problem with torture and seemingly ignore the vast majority of us who do. I get it that bashing America and Americans is fun, but the continued attempt to compare us with Soviet Russia and North Korea is getting tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/685 "2014-12-12T16:10:30Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > the vast minority of posters in this thread Posters in this thread are not a representative sample of the US citizenry. Acceptance, even endorsement of torture exists much more widely than is apparent in a message board populated by ignorance-fighters - the election of Bush and the ratings of Fox demonstrate what needs to be worked on. As for why the focus is on the supporters, that’s the nature of fighting ignorance - it takes much more work than congratulating support of basic morality and law. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/686 "2014-12-12T16:16:45Z")
There is an emerging narrative I’ve seen in certain outlets (e.g. [NY Post](http://nypost.com/2014/12/11/tortured-tantrums-feinsteins-fake-fury/), but also [here](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/psychologist-reported-to-work-for-cia-slams-senate-torture-report/)) that aims to discredit the Senate report on grounds that the Senate committee didn’t talk to the CIA people actually involved in the program. Does anyone know the straight dope on why they proceeded as they did? I understand they went through 6mm pages of documents but not sure why they wouldn’t bother talking to people from the CIA, even if those people would obviously be biased toward covering their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/687 "2014-12-12T16:25:04Z")
There was an ongoing Department of Justice investigation into the destruction of torture videos by the CIA. The Committee’s Republicans argued that CIA employees would be put at legal risk by answering investigators’ questions, and the CIA also refused to compel them to testify. So the Senate Committee did not subpoena their testimony. Additionally, many of the principals had already been interviewed at length by the CIA internally and by the DOJ, and the Committee reviewed those interviews. Finally, they gave the CIA a chance to comment on the report, and they incorporated some comments and made edits accordingly. So the claim that the report was made without talking to the CIA is pretty misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/688 "2014-12-12T16:27:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So the claim that the report was made without talking to the CIA is pretty misleading. From the NY Post, I would expect nothing less than to be misled. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/689 "2014-12-12T16:33:35Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > From the NY Post, I would expect nothing less than to be misled. Thanks. It’s not just Murdoch media. It’s the same CIA officials that the torture defenders in this thread trust to tell them the truth about torture’s effectiveness. This is part of their well-funded PR campaign to mislead the public about this report. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/690 "2014-12-12T16:34:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > There was an ongoing Department of Justice investigation into the destruction of torture videos by the CIA… And did we need to see them? Not any more, we already know that they are worse than what we already know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/691 "2014-12-12T16:45:43Z")
I find myself wondering about that movie, _Zero Dark_ something or other. I’m given to understand, having not subjected myself to it, that it implies that torture was essential to the death of ObL. Any of you ever see _The Green Berets_, with John Wayne and a wide variety of Asian actors…Japanese Vietnamese, Chinese Vietnamese, we couldn’t tell the difference in those days…in a patriotic spectacle. Had all the elements, the goofball n’er do well who discovers the righteous well springs of his patriotism, the liberal reporter who sees the light of truth. And, of course, Big John himself, as they guy who _can_ handle the truth… There was, I understand, some cooperation on the part of the Defense Dept. Mmmm, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/692 "2014-12-12T16:51:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The Committee’s Republicans argued that CIA employees would be put at legal risk by answering investigators’ questions, and the CIA also refused to compel them to testify. So the Senate Committee did not subpoena their testimony. How, though, does your second sentence follow from the first? Republicans dropped out in 2009. CIA said they wouldn’t compel people to testify. Maybe I’m missing the significance of that last part, but how does that prevent the Senate from subpoenaing them? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/693 "2014-12-12T17:01:26Z")
It didn’t prevent it. It just made it unlikely to be effective, and would have undermined any bipartisan support they had (and were able to maintain). Given their other access the CIA input, it wasn’t worth it to ask officials the same questions and have them not appear or take the Fifth. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/694 "2014-12-12T17:23:05Z")
> **[Some CIA interrogators had no training, "left to their own devices"](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/12/cia-senate-torture-report-untrained-agents-made-up-torture-methods/)** > > The untrained interrogators were quite literally "left to their own devices." \*\*Untrained CIA Agents Were Just Making Up Torture Methods As They Went Along \*\* Not going to post excerpts, feeling kinda heartsick today. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/695 "2014-12-12T18:28:36Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You do realize that you should be having a very hard time grouping all Americans, all 316.1 million of them, together in one heap. I’m not sure why you focus on the vast minority of posters in this thread who don’t have a problem with torture and seemingly ignore the vast majority of us who do. I get it that bashing America and Americans is fun, but the continued attempt to compare us with Soviet Russia and North Korea is getting tiresome. Well Europeans all get thrown together as one homogenous group with frightening regularity on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/696 "2014-12-12T18:39:11Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well Europeans all get thrown together as one homogenous group with frightening regularity on this board. Only because “Eurotrash” is such a terrific pejorative, ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/697 "2014-12-13T00:30:34Z")
Reviewing the last couple of page: THERE WILL BE NO MORE NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON THE HUMANITY OR CHARACTER OF OTHER POSTERS IN THIS THREAD. We have a perfectly fine BBQ Pit forum where such comments are permitted. And while I am not prohibiting such comments regarding either the actual non-SDMB parties involved in the torture program or its investigation, if I consider such comments to be efforts to insult posters as if they were protoges of the insulted parties, I will issue Warnings. Stick to a discussion of the issues and leave the personalities out of it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/698 "2014-12-13T01:41:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This. > > I don’t really give a shit whether they got some information that helped kill Bin Laden, or prevented some bomb going off somewhere. It wasn’t worth it. We have damaged ourselves as a nation. We have committed moral atrocities. > > And because of that, we have greatly increased the risks to our citizens abroad. There will be lots more bombs. > > The best we can do now is to stop torturing, and to try and convict the people who made it happen. And it will still take a generation or more to clean the stain off our nation. Oh bullshit. The whole “investigation” is pure political nonsense. It was never an investigation. Nobody from the CIA was interviewed and there was never an actionable outcome to it. It was pure theater from day one. What you and others are calling a moral atrocity is a vacation in the eyes of the people we’re fighting against. They’re busy killing people 50 at a time. [They’ve already killed more than 5000 people last month alon](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914)e. We’ll get zero respect from them over this. They know damn well we’re bombing them indiscriminately with cruise missiles in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and won’t hesitate to slaughter people like Bin Landen’s family if they get in our way. Your outrage doesn’t match reality. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/699 "2014-12-13T01:49:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The whole “investigation” is pure political nonsense. Cite, please. > [@](#): > > It was never an investigation. Cite, please. > [@](#): > > Nobody from the CIA was interviewed Cite please. And also, what information would be gained from CIA employees that is not gained from their memos, reports, and communications? > [@](#): > > and there was never an actionable outcome to it. Cite please. > [@](#): > > What you and others are calling a moral atrocity is a vacation in the eyes of the people we’re fighting against. They’re busy killing people 50 at a time. [They’ve already killed more than 5000 people last month alon](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914)e. I’m sorry, I’m not seeing the relevance. Can you explain a bit more? > [@](#): > > We’ll get zero respect from them over this. Umm, true. Are you under the misapprehension that this report has anything to do with garnering our enemies’ respect? Seriously, what the hell? > [@](#): > > They know damn well we’re bombing them indiscriminately with cruise missiles in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and won’t hesitate to slaughter people like Bin Landen’s family if they get in our way. Again, huh? What does that have to do with anything? . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/700 "2014-12-13T01:59:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh bullshit. The whole “investigation” is pure political nonsense. It was never an investigation. Nobody from the CIA was interviewed and there was never an actionable outcome to it. It was pure theater from day one. > > What you and others are calling a moral atrocity is a vacation in the eyes of the people we’re fighting against. They’re busy killing people 50 at a time. [They’ve already killed more than 5000 people last month alon](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914)e. We’ll get zero respect from them over this. They know damn well we’re bombing them indiscriminately with cruise missiles in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and won’t hesitate to slaughter people like Bin Landen’s family if they get in our way. > > Your outrage doesn’t match reality. It’s not about getting respect from them. It’s about getting respect from ourselves and the rest of the world. How can we be the greatest country on earth if we do something that most of our allies consider among the vilest actions that can possibly be taken? If we become known as a country that is okay with torture, and that tries to hide the torture, then that will hurt us far, far more than the terrorists ever could. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=36)