# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/701 "2014-12-13T02:23:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh bullshit. The whole “investigation” is pure political nonsense. It was never an investigation. Nobody from the CIA was interviewed and there was never an actionable outcome to it. It was pure theater from day one. > > What you and others are calling a moral atrocity is a vacation in the eyes of the people we’re fighting against. They’re busy killing people 50 at a time. [They’ve already killed more than 5000 people last month alon](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914)e. We’ll get zero respect from them over this. They know damn well we’re bombing them indiscriminately with cruise missiles in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and won’t hesitate to slaughter people like Bin Landen’s family if they get in our way. > > Your outrage doesn’t match reality. You know what one of the key things is about any struggle predicated on moral authority? _Don’t. Sink. To. Their. Level._ If the reason we’re going after the Taliban is because they’re _evil motherfuckers_ (which they are), it’s pretty important that we not also become evil motherfuckers. I don’t think this is a complicated concept. The reason we don’t commit atrocities is because we’re better than them. It has nothing to do with impressing them, it has to do with us keeping the moral high ground, with us not becoming monsters in the eyes of our allies, with us being _better than them_. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/702 "2014-12-13T03:27:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How can we be the greatest country on earth … sorry, I have to ask; this is sarcasm, right? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/703 "2014-12-13T03:48:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh bullshit. The whole “investigation” is pure political nonsense. It was never an investigation. Nobody from the CIA was interviewed and there was never an actionable outcome to it. It was pure theater from day one. > > What you and others are calling a moral atrocity is a vacation in the eyes of the people we’re fighting against. They’re busy killing people 50 at a time. [They’ve already killed more than 5000 people last month alon](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914)e. We’ll get zero respect from them over this. They know damn well we’re bombing them indiscriminately with cruise missiles in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan and won’t hesitate to slaughter people like Bin Landen’s family if they get in our way. > > Your outrage doesn’t match reality. The reality is that civilized nations do not torture and the US signed the UN Convention Against Torture. Is this truth inconvenient for you? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/704 "2014-12-13T04:11:22Z")
Torture might be justified in\* very extreme \*situations, but like many exceptions, pretty soon that tiny window of justifiability gets taken further and further. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/705 "2014-12-13T04:21:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Torture might be justified in\* very extreme \*situations, but like many exceptions, pretty soon that tiny window of justifiability gets taken further and further. You might think it is justified but it is contrary to the UN Convention. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/706 "2014-12-13T04:44:31Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You might think it is justified but it is contrary to the UN Convention. It’s definitely contrary to the UN Convention. I don’t doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/707 "2014-12-13T08:22:08Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You know what one of the key things is about any struggle predicated on moral authority? > > _Don’t. Sink. To. Their. Level._ Their “level” last month killed 5000 people. That’s just last month. Where’s the comparison exactly? You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? Let me know when your moral outrage catches up to the current use of drones to kill terrorists and the [collateral deaths](http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/) that come with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/708 "2014-12-13T11:33:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where’s the comparison exactly? You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? > > Let me know when your moral outrage catches up to the current use of drones to kill terrorists and the [collateral deaths](http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/) that come with it. Interesting: so you Americans executed as war criminals the Nazi agents for the crime of “physical discomfort”? That is a new fact in the american interpretation of history. It seems if an american follows the gestapo and the KGB torture regime it is ‘physical discomfort’ but if it is done by foreigners it is clearly the torture and has the penalty of death. it is an interesting morality some americans have, or the lack of morality. Why he makes a difference from the torture and the drone killings of the civilians, I think it is only primitive tribalism of politics. It is hard to see a great difference between this thinking and the thinking of the takfiri, it is only resources that seperate the lack of humanity between them. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/709 "2014-12-13T12:08:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their “level” last month killed 5000 people. That’s just last month. Where’s the comparison exactly? You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? _Torture_ to mass murder, thank you. And how is this an argument? “See, we’re doing something morally reprehensible, inexcusable, and terrible, but they do worse things, so we’re fine!” How far above their level do you think we should be, **Magiver**? One notch? Three notches? Is it okay if our government randomly murdered 4000 people for dissenting? Would we have been justified in systematically wiping out the wives and children of everyone in the German army ca. 1944, so long as the death toll was lower than 6.000.000 and there was no racism involved? Here’s a revolutionary idea. How about, instead of trying to excuse the inexcusable by pointing to how evil our enemies are, we judge what we do on our own merit? Torture is WRONG. Big, all-caps, write-it-in-500-foot-tall-flaming-letters-on-the-moon _WRONG_. Anyone seeing our government commit such vile acts institutionally would be entirely justified in seeing our government as a group of morally reprehensible thugs, regardless of whether our enemy was the Taliban, or Russia, or fucking _Hitler_. Isn’t that our claim to fame here? That we’re the moral high ground? We’re the good guys. _Good guys don’t torture._ Personally,I really like the way **clairobscure** put it in the pit thread, and I feel that this should be repeated. > [@Defence of torture and torturers, really?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/defence-of-torture-and-torturers-really/707016/51): > > Yes, it is. Im pretty sure that if I had predicted that the USA would detain people without due process, use torture, etc… when I joined the board, I would have been laughed out of the thread. Essentially everybody (except say, people like **Der Trihs** ) would have stated that such a thing couldn’t happen in the USA. > > In fact, it’s not so much that I’m surprised that some people would support torture but rather that it became an acceptable view in the USA, supported by many, if not the majority. A mainstream position in this country. And on this board. > > Imagine that instead I’m predicting now that in 2025, the US government will censor medias, and forbid political parties deemed unpatriotic. And that not only it turns out to be true, but also that American people in general and posters on this board in particular become supportive of it. That’s more or less my level of surprise re Guantanamo and torture. And no, the collateral damage from the drone strikes is not comparable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/710 "2014-12-13T13:28:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their “level” last month killed 5000 people. That’s just last month. Where’s the comparison exactly? You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? I’m comparing torture to torture. They torture, we shouldn’t. Not for their respect, but for our own, and for the respect of the rest of the world. Being known as a torturing country would be very, very damaging. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/711 "2014-12-13T15:39:30Z")
It already is, and has been, very, very damaging! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/712 "2014-12-13T16:03:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Their “level” last month killed 5000 people. That’s just last month. Where’s the comparison exactly? You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? > > Let me know when your moral outrage catches up to the current use of drones to kill terrorists and the [collateral deaths](http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/) that come with it. So in your world, as long as the other guy is “worse” doing" one thin g or another, we are fine doing anything we want. Under your logic, it would be fine to simply anally rape anyone we capture, since that is not as bad as killing them. Your comparison has no basis in reality. Torturing people has not prevented anyone from being killed; it just shows that we, too, can be monsters. And there is plenty of outrage against the indiscriminate use of drone assassinations. We should not be engaging in that, either. However, at least in that case you are comparing similar behavior. Torture, in which a person has already been detained and removed from the conflict, but will now be subjected to excruciating pain on the off chance that he or she might provide information, (with a better than average chance that the “information” will be bad), is not a comparable activity to drone strikes. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/713 "2014-12-13T16:45:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re comparing physical discomfort to mass murder? Torture is a lot more than 'physical discomfort." ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/714 "2014-12-13T16:59:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So in your world, as long as the other guy is “worse” doing" one thin g or another, we are fine doing anything we want. Under your logic, it would be fine to simply anally rape anyone we capture, since that is not as bad as killing them. There isn’t a scale big enough to compare the 2 scenarios. We [waterboarded 20,000 of our own troops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) but the 3 [del] prisoners [/del] indefinitely held detainees who experienced the same thing are victims. And the poor things got an enema. Wow the horror. You should be picketing hospitals as we speak. And it’s just a happy coincidence that the report was released the same time as the embarrassing inquiry of Gruber. And it’s a coincidence the report magically stopped at Bush because apparently the CIA has been baking cookies for the last 50 years prior to him. Can’t go back to previous president because it would drag Hilary into it. But ultimately for some odd reason your moral outrage stops short of killing civilians in drone attacks. Zips right by you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/715 "2014-12-13T17:04:19Z")
Torture is okay, because worse things happen and we kill people and politics. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/716 "2014-12-13T17:11:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There isn’t a scale big enough to compare the 2 scenarios. You don’t have to compare them. If you steal a million dollars, and some other guy steals a billion, you’re still a thief. > [@](#): > > We [waterboarded 20,000 of our own troops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) but the 3 [del] prisoners [/del] indefinitely held detainees who experienced the same thing are victims. This is among the stupidest argument I’ve seen torture apologists make. We did highly controlled, and brief waterboarding of some troops, _to prepare them for the possibility of torture_. The utter nonsense that you have to trot out should show you that your position is wrong. > [@](#): > > And the poor things got an enema. Wow the horror. You should be picketing hospitals as we speak. Another vapid argument. According to this standard rape doesn’t exist, because some people have sex sometimes. Think about that. Seriously. > [@](#): > > And it’s just a happy coincidence that the report was released the same time as the embarrassing inquiry of Gruber. And it’s a coincidence the report magically stopped at Bush because apparently the CIA has been baking cookies for the last 50 years prior to him. Can’t go back to previous president because it would drag Hilary into it. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence. Since the GOP is trumping up nonsense nonstop for the last six+ years, it makes sense that any release is going to abut against some trumped up nonsense. > [@](#): > > But ultimately for some odd reason your moral outrage stops short of killing civilians in drone attacks. Zips right by you. Show me where civilians were targeted on purpose, and maybe you’ll have a point. Maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/717 "2014-12-13T17:12:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Torture is okay, because worse things happen and we kill people and politics. Got it. Apparently. Because the techniques in question were stopped years ago and we’re still killing people with drones with no thought to those around them. So stamp your feet in indignation about what we stopped doing years ago and continue to ignore what we’re still doing today. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/718 "2014-12-13T17:13:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Show me where civilians were targeted on purpose, and maybe you’ll have a point. Maybe not. Show me where it matters if we accidently killed them. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/719 "2014-12-13T17:14:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There isn’t a scale big enough to compare the 2 scenarios. > > We [waterboarded 20,000 of our own troops](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) but the 3 [del] prisoners [/del] indefinitely held detainees who experienced the same thing are victims. And the poor things got an enema. Wow the horror. You should be picketing hospitals as we speak. > > And it’s just a happy coincidence that the report was released the same time as the embarrassing inquiry of Gruber. And it’s a coincidence the report magically stopped at Bush because apparently the CIA has been baking cookies for the last 50 years prior to him. Can’t go back to previous president because it would drag Hilary into it. > > But ultimately for some odd reason your moral outrage stops short of killing civilians in drone attacks. Zips right by you. It is most amusing to see how the tribal politics distort in some people all understanding of the civilized morality, so that they can pretend that actions that their country executed the Germans and the Japenese for in doing are mere discomforts. So the Germans and the Japense you executed, poor complaining Americans, they only expereicned discomfort and you committed murder against them in exeucting them for torture as war crimes because “poor things” americans were not tough enough This of course takes an incredible dishonesty ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/720 "2014-12-13T17:22:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Show me where it matters if we accidently killed them. Of course it matters. If someone is coming at you with a knife and you shoot them, and the bullet leaves the back of their head and hits a child across the street. That’s different than someone walking up and shooting that child on purpose. Also, how about the rest of my post? Can’t think up a rebuttal, so it doesn’t exist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=37)