# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/781 "2014-12-14T05:30:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did. Please quote the part that shows that the crime of waterboarding is what caused the capital sentence. I already did. I can’t be acountable for your failure. If you have contradictory evidence, please show it. Failure to produce any evidence on your part will be seen as an admittance that you have none and that the assertion you are trying to challenge is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/782 "2014-12-14T05:42:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I already did. Again, what you quoted does not show that the crime of waterboarding is what caused the capital sentence. If you insist that it does, then you really have problems with comprehending English. I can’t help you with that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/783 "2014-12-14T06:19:53Z")
ENOUGH! The quarrel over whether or not the death sentence was imposed explicitly for waterboarding is going nowhere and disrupting the thread with too many personal remarks. Barring further explicit evidence, everyone drop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/784 "2014-12-14T06:28:59Z")
well, then, nm. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/785 "2014-12-14T08:51:10Z")
Questions coming soon to a mesaage board near you: ‘Would re-establishing slavery help stimulate the economy?’ 'Would genocide help overpopulation? etc. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/786 "2014-12-14T13:17:00Z")
FWIW, [here is the complete transcript of the Tokyo trials](http://werle.rewi.hu-berlin.de/tokio.pdf) (I think). It’s not in a very searchable format, and it’s 500 pages long. If folks are interested, I think articles 54 and 55 are the ones dealing with torturing POWs. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/787 "2014-12-14T15:09:46Z")
I’m always impressed at how only the losers commit war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/788 "2014-12-14T16:22:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since this is the opposite of what I said, I can dismiss the rest of your nonsense, as well. Really, it’s the opposite of what you said? You want to explain that? This former method of interrogation has your panties all wadded up but not the drone strikes currently going on that actually kills people. We stopped these particular interrogation techniques long ago. Techniques that we performed on thousands of troops or techniques that we routinely use in the medical field. These interrogation techniques that we did and do to ourselves on a large scale were done on a handful of people who were the architects of terrorism representing the worst attack every made on US soil. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/789 "2014-12-14T16:46:03Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is most amusing to see how the tribal politics distort in some people all understanding of the civilized morality, so that they can pretend that actions that their country executed the Germans and the Japenese for in doing are mere discomforts. > > So the Germans and the Japense you executed, poor complaining Americans, they only expereicned discomfort and you committed murder against them in exeucting them for torture as war crimes because “poor things” americans were not tough enough > > This of course takes an incredible dishonesty The people executed for war crimes slaughtered millions of people, many of them worked literally to death. They did live vivisections on captives just to see how their bodies reacted to bio weapons. THAT’S torture. The Japanese destroyed entire villages accused of hiding Doolittle Raiders and it’s estimated that they killed a quarter million people in the search for them. And you’re upset because a handful of people were given the same treatment we subjected 20,000 of our own troops to. This you call torture but the war trial executions were a misrepresentation of history and somehow a hypocrisy in comparison. This is so far from the concept of “winners get to write history” that it should be classified as tortured logic. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/790 "2014-12-14T16:50:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We stopped these particular interrogation techniques long ago. A red herring by now, the point is that we never should had done it, and there are people that still think it was a good idea and it can therefore be used again in the future. > [@Magiver](#): > > Techniques that we performed on thousands of troops or techniques that we routinely use in the medical field. These interrogation techniques that we did and do to ourselves on a large scale Cite for those techniques being used to break the soldiers and done dozens if not hundreds of times on them? > [@Magiver](#): > > were done on a handful of people who were the architects of terrorism representing the worst attack every made on US soil. And it got us false information that was used in part to justify the worst move done by the USA: the invasion of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/791 "2014-12-14T16:54:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This former method of interrogation has your panties all wadded up but not the drone strikes currently going on that actually kills people. This thread is about the torture report. Whether or not one supports or opposes the drone strikes, torture is wrong. > [@](#): > > We stopped these particular interrogation techniques long ago. Techniques that we performed on thousands of troops or techniques that we routinely use in the medical field. No. We don’t routinely waterboard, and rectal feeding is not a routine medical use. Further, the rectal feeding and hydration was done for punishment, not for any medical need. > [@](#): > > These interrogation techniques that we did and do to ourselves on a large scale were done on a handful of people who were the architects of terrorism representing the worst attack every made on US soil. How do you know? According to the report, some detainees subjected to these methods were not “architects of terrorism” in any reasonable way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/792 "2014-12-14T17:05:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Japanese destroyed entire villages accused of hiding Doolittle Raiders and it’s estimated that they killed a quarter million people in the search for them. That number is not well supported. > **[Doolittle Raid](https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=26)** > > Doolittle Raid > [@](#): > > In addition to the executions, a Japanese effort to seek out the remaining American airmen who crash-landed in China resulted in 25,000 civilian deaths in the process. And that number you mentioned, like the idea of attempting to remove water boarding as torture, is only supported by ignoring what the Japanese were doing too, searching for the raiders was not the only reason, the Japanese were exterminating Chinese too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/793 "2014-12-14T17:11:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Torture might be justified in\* very extreme \*situations, but like many exceptions, pretty soon that tiny window of justifiability gets taken further and further. And that’s exactly how it was used. We didn’t know the extent of the attacks planned. If it were not for the brave passengers who stopped one of the planes it would have been driven into the White House or the Capital building completing their trifecta of attacking the economic, military and political seats of power. This wasn’t done on every terrorist shmuck that was captured. It was done against the kingpins involved. These techniques were used on the people who could reveal the threats to come. This is what HAS to happen in the real world. They were vetted ahead of time and not rogue ideas someone pulled out of their ass. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/794 "2014-12-14T17:14:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was done against the kingpins involved. No it wasn’t. Did you read the report? The CIA subsequently found that at least 22% of detainees were found to be improperly detained, and many of these were tortured. > [@](#): > > These techniques were used on the people who could reveal the threats to come. This is what HAS to happen in the real world. They were vetted ahead of time and not rogue ideas someone pulled out of their ass. Only traitors like John McCain disagree that anal feeding causing anal fissures and rectal prolapse was ineffective and wrong. No, these techniques got no useful information that wasn’t already known. These techniques weakened America, and the only way to fix the damage done is to fully reveal what happened to make sure it never happens again. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/795 "2014-12-14T17:15:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You want to explain that? This former method of interrogation has your panties all wadded up but not the drone strikes currently going on that actually kills people. I’m pretty sure **tomndebb** specifically has said that he/she is, in fact, quite upset about the drone strikes and against them. You’ve also been told several times that _this thread is not about drone strikes_. Make your own thread. This sort of deflection is just weak. This thread is about the US torturing people. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/796 "2014-12-14T17:28:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And that’s exactly how it was used. We didn’t know the extent of the attacks planned. If it were not for the brave passengers who stopped one of the planes it would have been driven into the White House or the Capital building completing their trifecta of attacking the economic, military and political seats of power. > > This wasn’t done on every terrorist shmuck that was captured. It was done against the kingpins involved. These techniques were used on the people who could reveal the threats to come. This is what HAS to happen in the real world. They were vetted ahead of time and not rogue ideas someone pulled out of their ass. If that is so, then why the relatives of Bin Laden and other Saudi people were allowed to leave with just friendly interviews? If it had to happen as you claim then that plane that left the USA (the “bin Laden flight” left the US more than a week after the attacks, so no. I’m not talking about the conspiracy that they left while planes could not fly over the USA then) should had landed in Guantanamo. So, no, there was a lot of vetting going on then that was done very quickly and as Guantanamo shows there were more than a few that got arrested and tortured for very iffy reasons. And torture also causes more enemies to rise against the one torturing in the real world: > **[US torture: Illegal, immoral and ineffective](https://www.times-standard.com/2013/07/11/us-torture-illegal-immoral-and-ineffective/)** > > Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo continue to trouble Americans of good will. Sadly, the U.S. has morphed since 9/11 from a country that once abhorred torture to one actively engaged in it. Is this change … > [@](#): > > Alexander found in Iraq that waterboarding actually cost American lives. The number one reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. So U. S. torture served to recruit fighters for al-Qaida in Iraq, which initiated most of the attacks on coalition forces. It’s no exaggeration, he notes, to say that half our losses and casualties came at the hands of foreigners who joined in because the U. S. abused Muslim detainees. > > The torture trap we fell into was partly due to our own ignorance, because the government went to great pains to hide the truth from us and manipulated our ignorance to enhance fear. > > Torture is just one component of the wars the Bush and Obama administrations carried out in our names. The wars’ costs include PTSD, military suicides and vets left jobless and homeless, not to mention billions of dollars. It’s not just torture victims who bear scars, because troops who tortured victims now suffer also. > > A related torture mess is Guantanamo, where even the government admits most detainees are charged with no crimes. At the same time, it claims illogically that these innocent men cannot be released. Of the 166 foreign captives in Guantanamo, 86 have been cleared for release or transfer, 106 are on hunger strike because they have no freedom to do anything else, and 45 are being force-fed. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/797 "2014-12-14T17:34:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This wasn’t done on every terrorist shmuck that was captured. It was done against the kingpins involved. These techniques were used on the people who could reveal the threats to come. Again: these morons tortured _their own spies_. Even if torture _did_ work, it can’t work if you’re stupid enough to sabotage your own intelligence network (the one that actually works) to do it. > [@](#): > > This is what HAS to happen in the real world. They were vetted ahead of time and not rogue ideas someone pulled out of their ass. They were vetted by small-minded posers who cannot comprehend the fact that time and time again, torture has been proven not to work. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/798 "2014-12-14T17:35:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And that’s exactly how it was used. We didn’t know the extent of the attacks planned. If it were not for the brave passengers who stopped one of the planes it would have been driven into the White House or the Capital building completing their trifecta of attacking the economic, military and political seats of power. Flight 93 has absolutely nothing to do with this. That’s one of the silliest appeals to emotion in the history of the board. “Torture is okay because, you know, the heroes of Flight 93” is preposterous. > [@](#): > > This wasn’t done on every terrorist shmuck that was captured. It was done against the kingpins involved. This is clearly false. Read the report. Predictably enough, the torture went well beyond “kingpins.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/799 "2014-12-14T17:38:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That number is not well supported. > > [http://ww2db.com/battle\_spec.php?battle\_id=26](http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=26) > And that number you mentioned, like the idea of attempting to remove water boarding as torture, is only supported by ignoring what the Japanese were doing too, searching for the raiders was not the only reason, the Japanese were exterminating Chinese too. The number is associated with the area the Japanese occupied in search of the Raiders sympathizers and continued for the time they spent there because they thought the area was going to be used as a launching base for more raids. If I remember correctly it was something like 50 battalions of soldiers sent down for the campaign. It is the number quoted by China. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/800 "2014-12-14T17:39:06Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > torture has been proven not to work. > **[How Britain tortured Nazi PoWs: The horrifying interrogation methods that...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html)** > > Britain has a reputation as a nation that prides itself on its love of fair play and respect for the rule of law. We claim the moral high ground when it comes to human rights. The first of the German spies who arrived in Britain in September 1940 were taken there. Vital information about a coming German invasion was extracted at great speed. This indicates the use of extreme methods, but these were desperate days demanding desperate measures. In charge was Colonel Robin Stephens, known as ‘Tin Eye’, because of the monocle fixed to his right eye. It was not a term of affection. The object of interrogation, Stephens told his officers, was simple: ‘Truth in the shortest possible time.’ A top secret memo spoke of ‘special methods’, but did not elaborate. … Close to 500 people passed through the gates of Camp 020. Principal among them were German spies, many of whom were ‘turned’ and persuaded — or maybe forced — to work for MI5. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=41)