# The Senate torture report **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773 "2014-12-09T17:20:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/801 "2014-12-14T17:42:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Flight 93 has absolutely nothing to do with this. That’s one of the silliest appeals to emotion in the history of the board. “Torture is okay because, you know, the heroes of Flight 93” is preposterous. It has everything to do with my response to Velocity’s statement about using techniques for special cases. 3 people were waterboarded. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/802 "2014-12-14T17:48:26Z")
Oh, goody, it was reserved for “special” cases! We only degraded ourselves into slobbering savagery in “special” cases. And we have that on the solid and reliable testimony of persons with an spotless record of candor and integrity! Feeling so much better now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/803 "2014-12-14T17:49:25Z")
“Special” cases, over 20% of which were wrong and tortured anyway. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/804 "2014-12-14T17:52:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The number is associated with the area the Japanese occupied in search of the Raiders sympathizers and continued for the time they spent there because they thought the area was going to be used as a launching base for more raids. If I remember correctly it was something like 50 battalions of soldiers sent down for the campaign. It is the number quoted by China. Seems that your source put an extra 0 on the number, until told otherwise it is more likely that the history site I quoted used the Chinese as the source too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/805 "2014-12-14T17:56:11Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They were vetted by small-minded posers who cannot comprehend the fact that time and time again, torture has been proven not to work. This all comes down to who is defining torture. [This](http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/goodhealth-faultless-premium-combination-douche%2c-enema-%26-water-bottle-system/ID=prod6145644-product?ext=gooMedicines_ampersand_Treatments_PLA_Elbow_ampersand_Shoulder_prod6145644_pla&adtype=pla&kpid=sku6129088&sst=1846a2db-8e9a-8d09-935d-000004b4840a&kpid=sku6129088) is a medical procedure that has little discomfort involved. Wow, the detainees are kept hydrated and have clean colons. BFD. What’s next on the scale of horrors? Lack of air conditioning when it gets hot? No lemons in their tea? Substandard soccer balls on their $750,000 soccer field? Qurans printed on recycled paper? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/806 "2014-12-14T17:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > “Special” cases, over 20% of which were wrong and tortured anyway. I’d like to home in on that part, if you have the actual citation. By “wrong”, does that mean persons who were only marginally connected, or not even remotely connected? (“Innocent” I believe is the precise terminology.) How did such people get into such a ghastly predicament? Somebody turned them in, seems most likely. Who? And perhaps more importantly, why? And does it matter, once we have reduced ourselves to vicious and vengeful beasts, does innocence even matter any more? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/807 "2014-12-14T17:58:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [How Britain tortured Nazi PoWs: The horrifying interrogation methods that belie our proud boast that we fought a clean war | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223831/How-Britain-tortured-Nazi-PoWs-The-horrifying-interrogation-methods-belie-proud-boast-fought-clean-war.html) > > The first of the German spies who arrived in Britain in September 1940 were taken there. Vital information about a coming German invasion was extracted at great speed. This indicates the use of extreme methods, but these were desperate days demanding desperate measures. In charge was Colonel Robin Stephens, known as ‘Tin Eye’, because of the monocle fixed to his right eye. > > It was not a term of affection. The object of interrogation, Stephens told his officers, was simple: ‘Truth in the shortest possible time.’ A top secret memo spoke of ‘special methods’, but did not elaborate. > … > Close to 500 people passed through the gates of Camp 020. Principal among them were German spies, many of whom were ‘turned’ and persuaded — or maybe forced — to work for MI5. There is only the tiny problem that there was no invasion. And the context of the piece is to point out that information to convict Nazi war criminals was **tainted** (IOW not a good thing) with confessions obtained with torture, it is likely that if that had been known more Germans in Nuremberg would not had been executed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/808 "2014-12-14T18:06:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really, it’s the opposite of what you said? > > You want to explain that? This former method of interrogation has your panties all wadded up but not the drone strikes currently going on that actually kills people. This is the second time you have pretended that I have not objected to drone strikes in contradiction to my actual words. I am going to have to consider whether your trolling, at this point. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/809 "2014-12-14T18:06:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’d like to home in on that part, if you have the actual citation. By “wrong”, does that mean persons who were only marginally connected, or not even remotely connected? (“Innocent” I believe is the precise terminology.) > > How did such people get into such a ghastly predicament? Somebody turned them in, seems most likely. Who? And perhaps more importantly, why? And does it matter, once we have reduced ourselves to vicious and vengeful beasts, does innocence even matter any more? Page 14 of 499 of the [report](http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf). I don’t think all these questions in your second paragraph are answered, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/810 "2014-12-14T18:10:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Seems that your source put an extra 0 on the number, until told otherwise it is more likely that the history site I quoted used the Chinese as the source too. The campaign has a name. The [Zhejiang-Jiangxi Campaign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_Campaign). WIKI: (Date bolding are mine): **On April 18, 1942** , the United States launched the Doolittle Raid, an attack by B-25 Mitchell bombers from the USS Hornet on Tokyo, Nagoya, and Yokohama. The original plan was for the aircraft to bomb Japan and land at airfields in the unoccupied portion of China. The operation started on **May 15, 1942** with 40 infantry battalions and 15-16 artillery battalions of Japanese Army. Sixty four American airmen parachuted into the area around Zhejiang. Most were given shelter by the Chinese civilians but eight of the Americans were picked up by Japanese patrols; three were shot after a show trial for ‘crimes against humanity’. When Japanese troops moved out of the Zhejiang and Jiangxi areas in **mid-August** , they left behind a trail of devastation. Chinese estimates put the death toll at 250,000 civilians.[1] Shunroku Hata, the commander of Japanese forces involved in the massacre of the 250,000 Chinese civilians, was sentenced in 1948 in part due to his “failure to prevent atrocities”. He was given a life sentence but was paroled in 1954. I was off by 5 batallions. It was 56. And as you can see it was a deliberate campaign in response to the raid and it took place over a time span of 3 months following the raid. The death toll includes people who were given cholera, typhoid, plague and dysentery. It also killed 1,700 Japanese troops because of the diseases unleashed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/811 "2014-12-14T18:14:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The campaign has a name. The [Zhejiang-Jiangxi Campaign](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_Campaign). WIKI: (Date bolding are mine): > > **On April 18, 1942** , the United States launched the Doolittle Raid, an attack by B-25 Mitchell bombers from the USS Hornet on Tokyo, Nagoya, and Yokohama. The original plan was for the aircraft to bomb Japan and land at airfields in the unoccupied portion of China. > > The operation started on **May 15, 1942** with 40 infantry battalions and 15-16 artillery battalions of Japanese Army. > > Sixty four American airmen parachuted into the area around Zhejiang. Most were given shelter by the Chinese civilians but eight of the Americans were picked up by Japanese patrols; three were shot after a show trial for ‘crimes against humanity’. > > When Japanese troops moved out of the Zhejiang and Jiangxi areas in **mid-August** , they left behind a trail of devastation. Chinese estimates put the death toll at 250,000 civilians.[1] > > Shunroku Hata, the commander of Japanese forces involved in the massacre of the 250,000 Chinese civilians, was sentenced in 1948 in part due to his “failure to prevent atrocities”. He was given a life sentence but was paroled in 1954. > I was off by 5 batallions. It was 56. And as you can see it was a deliberate campaign in response to the raid and it took place over a time span of 3 months following the raid. The death toll includes people who were given cholera, typhoid, plague and dysentery. It also killed 1,700 Japanese troops because of the diseases unleashed. And I was correct, the number you quote was not really just in a quest or punishment for the Doolitle raid, the Japanese planned that operation ahead of that raid: > [@](#): > > Imperial General Headquarters was aware of possible air attack from Chinese territory on Japan. **Two days before the Doolittle Raid** , Headquarters set up an operational plan with the goal of defeating Chinese forces and destroying air bases. The operation started on May 15, 1942 with 40 infantry battalions and 15-16 artillery battalions of Japanese Army.[2] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/812 "2014-12-14T18:28:39Z")
Interesting, in a morbid and perverse way, how much play the “Japanese” angle is getting. Over at _Crooks and Liars_, we have that paragon of truth and candor, Mr. Karl Rove, offering us: **Rove: CIA’s Waterboarding Not Torture Like Japanese War Crimes Because We Raised Detainee’s Legs** > **[Rove: CIA's Waterboarding Not Torture Like Japanese War Crimes Because We...](https://crooksandliars.com/2014/12/rove-cias-waterboarding-not-torture)** > > Republican strategist and former senior advisor to President George W. Bush argued on Sunday that the CIA's use of waterboarding on detainees could not be considered torture because it was "designed" to let the victim live. **Dick Cheney: We Prosecuted Japanese For ‘Other Stuff, Not For Waterboarding’** > **[Dick Cheney: We Prosecuted Japanese For 'Other Stuff, Not For Waterboarding'](https://crooksandliars.com/2014/12/dick-cheney-we-prosecuted-japanese-other)** > > Torture apologist in chief Dick Cheney treated everyone to a bit of revisionist history on the Sunday's Meet the Press Well, there you have it! (Lest it be misunderstood, those two worthies are quoted in _Crooks_, they did not speak directly to that source. Links at the site, natch…) ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/813 "2014-12-14T18:33:09Z")
This is rich. After wasting everyone’s time over whether the Chase Nielsen’s tormentors were executed “just” because of the waterboarding, it’s somehow obvious to him that the 250,000 deaths in a particular war zone were all about the Doolittle Raid. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/814 "2014-12-14T18:33:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is the second time you have pretended that I have not objected to drone strikes in contradiction to my actual words. > > I am going to have to consider whether your trolling, at this point. > > [/Moderating] The enhanced interrogation techniques have long since ceased. We knew about them years ago and they were ended. At most they are somewhat discomforting. No fingernails removed or other forms of real torture. They represented a handful of people at a time when we didn’t know what was coming down the pipeline. It was over before it started. While I confess I missed your objection to current drone strikes (and apologize) it rings hollow in the face of a limited and discontinued use of mildly discomforting interrogation techniques. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/815 "2014-12-14T18:43:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And I was correct, the number you quote was not really just in a quest or punishment for the Doolitle raid, the Japanese planned that operation ahead of that raid: They slaughtered entire villages in retaliation for the raid. that you keep insisting it was “only” 25,000 when the actual number was 250,000 is just semantic bullshit. The total number of people killed stands in spite of your attempt at a debate point. Now if you have a quote that says the were originally tasked with killing 225,000 people then by all means post it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/816 "2014-12-14T18:47:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They slaughtered entire villages in retaliation for the raid. that you keep insisting it was “only” 25,000 when the actual number was 250,000 is just semantic bullshit. The total number of people killed stands in spite of your attempt at a debate point. Now if you have a quote that says the were originally tasked with killing 225,000 people then by all means post it. > **[Second Sino-Japanese War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War)** > > China >  Japan > 14,000,000 total > [@](#): > > "The Chinese casualties (for the 1937-45 war) were 3.22 million soldiers, 9.13 million civilians who were collateral damage, and another 8.4 million were non-military casualties. According to historian Mitsuyoshi Himeta, at least 2.7 million civilians died during **the “kill all, loot all, burn all” operation (Three Alls Policy, or sanko sakusen) implemented in May 1942 in North China by general Yasuji Okamura and authorized on 3 December 1941 by Imperial Headquarter Order number 575."** As another poster mentioned in a past discussion on this: > [@Retribution for the Doolittle Raid](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/retribution-for-the-doolittle-raid/499469/16): > > What the PBS site actually says is: > > which is not quite the same thing. Also the wiki article on that [Japanese operation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_Campaign) notes that number was a Chinese estimate, and that the operation had a secondary purpose of denying access to the area to the Allies for the building of airbases. > > So without having a counter-cite, I’d say it’s very likely the Chinese estimate is unrealistically high, and what deaths there were, while doubtless large numbers, were not all due to the search for the Doolittle fliers per se. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/817 "2014-12-14T18:53:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The enhanced interrogation techniques have long since ceased. We knew about them years ago and they were ended. At most they are somewhat discomforting. No fingernails removed or other forms of real torture. :rolleyes: Some of our victims ended up insane, crippled or dead. And it’s torture whether or not you choose to call it torture. Everyone involved belongs in a prison cell for life, or executed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/818 "2014-12-14T19:06:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Some of our victims ended up insane, crippled or dead. > > And it’s torture whether or not you choose to call it torture. Everyone involved belongs in a prison cell for life, or executed. So, you’re in favor of the death penalty now? When did you change your mind about that? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/819 "2014-12-14T19:33:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [Second Sino-Japanese War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War) > As another poster mentioned in a past discussion on this: post 815 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773/820 "2014-12-14T19:38:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > post 815 Imperial Headquarter Order number 575 Unless you can point to that order declaring that it was organized to specifically punish the ones helping the raid the point stands, not all the Chinese who died were due to the search for the Doolittle fliers or to just punish them for giving them shelter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-senate-torture-report/706773.md?page=42)